|
Post by aufan on Mar 6, 2022 15:51:53 GMT
Just because it eventually went does not mean it was not initially withheld. Nobody debates that the aid was withheld…. Except I guess you? I'll have what he is having. So if your employer doesn’t pay you this week, and says we will pay you months later… you’re cool with it, they aren’t withholding anything.
|
|
|
Post by Hero on Mar 6, 2022 16:17:35 GMT
I'll have what he is having. So if your employer doesn’t pay you this week, and says we will pay you months later… you’re cool with it, they aren’t withholding anything. You are trying to split hairs and your analogy does not fit the situation.
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Mar 6, 2022 17:07:15 GMT
Trump withheld aid. Months later after it became public,, the aid was then released.
You are saying that this is not withholding aid, and saying that it was withholding aid is splitting hairs.
|
|
|
Post by Hero on Mar 6, 2022 20:27:09 GMT
Trump withheld aid. Months later after it became public,, the aid was then released. You are saying that this is not withholding aid, and saying that it was withholding aid is splitting hairs. Aid is given or it is not. This is a tempest in a teapot.
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Mar 6, 2022 20:46:52 GMT
So in your mind, Trump never denied aid to Ukraine?
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Mar 7, 2022 0:30:49 GMT
So in your mind, Trump never denied aid to Ukraine? Trump GAVE aid to Ukraine that Obama would not. And, Ukraine survives still today ONLY because of it.
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Mar 7, 2022 2:07:59 GMT
So in your mind, Trump never denied aid to Ukraine? Trump GAVE aid to Ukraine that Obama would not. And, Ukraine survives still today ONLY because of it. The programs/funding started during the Obama administration, continued under Trump, with funds appropriated by Congress. Trump withheld funds from these programs in 2019, and they were only released after a whistle blower made it public and investigations started. And your interpretation is that Trump did not withhold funds from Ukraine, despite that nobody argues he didn’t, except you and the board’s cheerleader. You realize that everyone agrees that the aid was withheld, the impeachment was whether it was an abuse of power to withhold it.
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Mar 7, 2022 15:13:35 GMT
Obama started the aid program, just after he sat and watched Putin take Crimea. But, Obama only allowed "non-lethal" aid. ie: Blankets, MRE's, Night-vision goggles, etc. All nice things to have, but not terribly effective at stopping Russian tanks. Obama was afraid to antagonize Putin. TRUMP agreed to start sending LETHAL aid, Ie: anti-tank missiles, anti-aircraft missiles and other kinds of effective weapons. Trump was NOT afraid of antagonizing Putin. That's what Hen calls "ass-kissing". I call that "ass-backwards". It is known, and accepted that Trump delayed the shipments, by ~ 55 days. But, he allowed the shipments to be made, before the Sept 30 deadline for government spending. The shipments WERE made. Trump did send lethal aid to Ukraine, for the first time. It is that equipment that has allowed them to hold off Putin's assault for as long as they have. Trump had policy reasons for wanting to delay the shipments. Others might not agree with his policies, but... he saw no reason not to use leverage to try to get help from Zelensky. When his own staff starting telling him it MIGHT be illegal (it remains an open question as to whether it was, or not) he changed his stance and released the aid. For this minor bit of nonsense, the Democrats launched a full-blown impeachment for PURELY political purposes. They knew it would not succeed. They knew the aid had already been released. They knew there would NEVER be a conviction. But, they decided to drag the country through a divisive partisan scam just as payback for the stain (pun intended) of Bill Clinton's impeachment. Oh, and to help their own political prospects. Trump never got the help he requested from Zelensky. I wonder if Zelensky regrets that today? Here's an example of threatening to withold aid, and getting his demand ful-filled. For a BILLION dollars, not just $400 million. www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.htmlCheck out the 51:49 mark. "Som' Bitch" shazam!
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Mar 7, 2022 18:44:57 GMT
Obama started the aid program, just after he sat and watched Putin take Crimea. But, Obama only allowed "non-lethal" aid. ie: Blankets, MRE's, Night-vision goggles, etc. All nice things to have, but not terribly effective at stopping Russian tanks. Obama was afraid to antagonize Putin. TRUMP agreed to start sending LETHAL aid, Ie: anti-tank missiles, anti-aircraft missiles and other kinds of effective weapons. Trump was NOT afraid of antagonizing Putin. That's what Hen calls "ass-kissing". I call that "ass-backwards". It is known, and accepted that Trump delayed the shipments, by ~ 55 days. But, he allowed the shipments to be made, before the Sept 30 deadline for government spending. The shipments WERE made. Trump did send lethal aid to Ukraine, for the first time. It is that equipment that has allowed them to hold off Putin's assault for as long as they have. Trump had policy reasons for wanting to delay the shipments. Others might not agree with his policies, but... he saw no reason not to use leverage to try to get help from Zelensky. When his own staff starting telling him it MIGHT be illegal (it remains an open question as to whether it was, or not) he changed his stance and released the aid. For this minor bit of nonsense, the Democrats launched a full-blown impeachment for PURELY political purposes. They knew it would not succeed. They knew the aid had already been released. They knew there would NEVER be a conviction. But, they decided to drag the country through a divisive partisan scam just as payback for the stain (pun intended) of Bill Clinton's impeachment. Oh, and to help their own political prospects. Trump never got the help he requested from Zelensky. I wonder if Zelensky regrets that today? Here's an example of threatening to withold aid, and getting his demand ful-filled. For a BILLION dollars, not just $400 million. www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.htmlCheck out the 51:49 mark. "Som' Bitch" shazam! Huzzah!
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Mar 7, 2022 19:40:52 GMT
Obama started the aid program, just after he sat and watched Putin take Crimea. But, Obama only allowed "non-lethal" aid. ie: Blankets, MRE's, Night-vision goggles, etc. All nice things to have, but not terribly effective at stopping Russian tanks. Obama was afraid to antagonize Putin. TRUMP agreed to start sending LETHAL aid, Ie: anti-tank missiles, anti-aircraft missiles and other kinds of effective weapons. Trump was NOT afraid of antagonizing Putin. That's what Hen calls "ass-kissing". I call that "ass-backwards". It is known, and accepted that Trump delayed the shipments, by ~ 55 days. But, he allowed the shipments to be made, before the Sept 30 deadline for government spending. The shipments WERE made. Trump did send lethal aid to Ukraine, for the first time. It is that equipment that has allowed them to hold off Putin's assault for as long as they have. Trump had policy reasons for wanting to delay the shipments. Others might not agree with his policies, but... he saw no reason not to use leverage to try to get help from Zelensky. When his own staff starting telling him it MIGHT be illegal (it remains an open question as to whether it was, or not) he changed his stance and released the aid. For this minor bit of nonsense, the Democrats launched a full-blown impeachment for PURELY political purposes. They knew it would not succeed. They knew the aid had already been released. They knew there would NEVER be a conviction. But, they decided to drag the country through a divisive partisan scam just as payback for the stain (pun intended) of Bill Clinton's impeachment. Oh, and to help their own political prospects. Trump never got the help he requested from Zelensky. I wonder if Zelensky regrets that today? Here's an example of threatening to withold aid, and getting his demand ful-filled. For a BILLION dollars, not just $400 million. www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.htmlCheck out the 51:49 mark. "Som' Bitch" shazam! So we agree Trump withheld aid, until he found out it MIGHT be illegal, then he released it?
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Mar 7, 2022 23:47:06 GMT
Obama started the aid program, just after he sat and watched Putin take Crimea. But, Obama only allowed "non-lethal" aid. ie: Blankets, MRE's, Night-vision goggles, etc. All nice things to have, but not terribly effective at stopping Russian tanks. Obama was afraid to antagonize Putin. TRUMP agreed to start sending LETHAL aid, Ie: anti-tank missiles, anti-aircraft missiles and other kinds of effective weapons. Trump was NOT afraid of antagonizing Putin. That's what Hen calls "ass-kissing". I call that "ass-backwards". It is known, and accepted that Trump delayed the shipments, by ~ 55 days. But, he allowed the shipments to be made, before the Sept 30 deadline for government spending. The shipments WERE made. Trump did send lethal aid to Ukraine, for the first time. It is that equipment that has allowed them to hold off Putin's assault for as long as they have. Trump had policy reasons for wanting to delay the shipments. Others might not agree with his policies, but... he saw no reason not to use leverage to try to get help from Zelensky. When his own staff starting telling him it MIGHT be illegal (it remains an open question as to whether it was, or not) he changed his stance and released the aid. For this minor bit of nonsense, the Democrats launched a full-blown impeachment for PURELY political purposes. They knew it would not succeed. They knew the aid had already been released. They knew there would NEVER be a conviction. But, they decided to drag the country through a divisive partisan scam just as payback for the stain (pun intended) of Bill Clinton's impeachment. Oh, and to help their own political prospects. Trump never got the help he requested from Zelensky. I wonder if Zelensky regrets that today? Here's an example of threatening to withold aid, and getting his demand ful-filled. For a BILLION dollars, not just $400 million. www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.htmlCheck out the 51:49 mark. "Som' Bitch" shazam! So we agree Trump withheld aid, until he found out it MIGHT be illegal, then he released it? And we agree that Trump was the first to send lethal aid to Ukraine?
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Mar 8, 2022 2:10:43 GMT
So we agree Trump withheld aid, until he found out it MIGHT be illegal, then he released it? And we agree that Trump was the first to send lethal aid to Ukraine? Sure. But I didn’t refute that, telling you that you got your facts wrong. Kind of hard to have a discussion if we aren’t even working with the same set of facts. The cheerleading squad here sure loved it though.
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Mar 8, 2022 4:28:37 GMT
And we agree that Trump was the first to send lethal aid to Ukraine? Sure. But I didn’t refute that, telling you that you got your facts wrong. Kind of hard to have a discussion if we aren’t even working with the same set of facts. The cheerleading squad here sure loved it though. So you are comparing not withholding $1 billion in aid to actually withholding $400 million in aid?
Can you not now see how your facts were wrong? In NEITHER case was the aid withheld. It went, both times. It was delayed... or threatened to be delayed, in both cases. In one case, the request was granted, in the other, not. I never said Trump didn't delay the aid. I said it wasn't withheld. The aid went.
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Mar 8, 2022 9:37:15 GMT
I am wrong by saying Trump withheld aid, because he withheld aid, but it was eventually released, therefore he never withheld aid?
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Mar 8, 2022 15:18:22 GMT
I am wrong by saying Trump withheld aid, because he withheld aid, but it was eventually released, therefore he never withheld aid? If you want to count "delayed" as withheld, then aid was "withheld" in BOTH cases. Biden told them, "you're not getting it".
|
|