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Post by Aufan on Jul 19, 2020 6:00:54 GMT
The reason to not wear masks is: There is NO SCIENCE that says mask in the general public are effective against a virus.. They have more negative effects than positive effects.
Now here is your chance, show me ONE Random Controlled Trial that show that masks do more harm than good.
Please forgive me, I forget that the anti-science viewpoint can spout harmful (life threatening) bullshit with no evidence, like you just did, while at the same time demanding double blind randomized studies to refute common scientific consensus.
Your posts perfectly backs my point. Anti-science has become more important than love thy neighbor.
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Post by bluehen on Jul 19, 2020 12:36:50 GMT
Agree 100% with Aufan. The idiocy is astonishing and it's inspired from the top....the narcissistic, ignoramus, spoiled snot toddler in the White House. The USA used to be looked up to among the advanced nations. Now we're pretty well pitied based on such a large portion of us worshiping at the altar of idiot trump, and the blind sheep 'cult' ( aka 'the base' ) can't seem to ween itself from the hypnotic spell of the toddler's apologists at Fox News. We're 4.3 percent of Earth's population with nearly 25% of Corona problems. We are NOT the envy of the world in how we are dealing with the pandemic as our idiot POTUS has claimed over and over. Furthermore we have great resources to fight and control it.....world class medical research universities, hospitals, physicians and infectious disease scientists. No excuses. It's just big big time DUMBTH ! The national leadership's war against science is one of the dumbest things in our entire history...right up there with the Civil War.
Gonna miss CF fun with you guys this fall but it's not important. SEC football is not even important now. So stay safe, do the right thing, help fight the virus and let's start to make America intelligent again this fall. Over and out from deep in the Blue Ridge.
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Post by Bevo on Jul 19, 2020 14:50:18 GMT
Show me ONE Random Controlled Trial that show this... with a virus. Just ONE! I'll give you a day or two.. since, it doesn't exist.
That was easy.
Regardless, you will be very hard pressed to find a scientist that says wearing a mask does more harm than good. Even if it may reduce the spread, based on what we know about how viruses spread, but is not proven to reduce the spread, is a good enough reason to wear one.
But instead, you would rather say that masks do more harm than good. This is the anti-science sentiment that is absolutely mind boggling. How has anti-science become such a core value for people?
Did you actually read the article? "There was a significant reduction by wearing face masks to 1 of 27 (4%) in detection of influenza virus in respiratory droplets, but no significant reduction in detection in aerosols " " For rhinovirus, there were no significant differences between detection of virus with or without face masks, both in respiratory droplets and in aerosols" "Our findings indicate that surgical masks can efficaciously reduce the emission of influenza virus particles into the environment in respiratory droplets, but not in aerosols" I should not have said "masks do more harm than good". There is certainly no study that shows that. But, there are downsides to wearing a mask. The worst would be, if they give people a false sense of security that prevents them from doing the things that we know are more important. Things like, distancing, staying out of large groups, washing their hands, etc. This was a very controlled trial, in a laboratory setting... even here, they show that masks are not effective at stopping virus spreading in aerosols. There have been MANY studies on this, for the flu. They all show the same thing. I am decidedly NOT "anti-science". I like science. I made my career in science. But, in the case of COVID, "science" has let us down. They've been wrong on many things. They have radically changed recommendations in a short amount of time. And, in far too many cases, the "science" has been politicized. "Science" won't admit the obvious: that COVID spread increased dramatically 2 weeks after massive, wide-spread protesting. Too political. Those kinds of things destroy public trust. I think that's very dangerous. I WISH, all we had to do was have everyone wear a face mask for 4-6 weeks to stop this virus. That's what the CDC Director just said. That's total BS. Will they help? Probably not, but maybe... a little. It's not a terrible inconvenience in most cases. It's exceptionally stupid to have to wear one at the beach, when you're 15 feet away from anyone. Or when you're out hiking on a trail and rarely see anyone. People should have the freedom to decide. And companies should be allowed the freedom to require them, or not, for their customers. We don't need government mandates. The benefit is just not as great as advertised. Not significant enough to mandate compliance. It is sad that mask wearing has become so political. I see MOST people wearing mask, voluntarily. And yet, cases are still spreading. I don't think the "All the time" decree from my Democrat Governor is going to do ANYTHING to change the trajectory of our cases. But, it makes Democrats "feel better".
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Post by Aufan on Jul 19, 2020 16:44:23 GMT
That was easy.
Regardless, you will be very hard pressed to find a scientist that says wearing a mask does more harm than good. Even if it may reduce the spread, based on what we know about how viruses spread, but is not proven to reduce the spread, is a good enough reason to wear one.
But instead, you would rather say that masks do more harm than good. This is the anti-science sentiment that is absolutely mind boggling. How has anti-science become such a core value for people?
Did you actually read the article? "There was a significant reduction by wearing face masks to 1 of 27 (4%) in detection of influenza virus in respiratory droplets, but no significant reduction in detection in aerosols " " For rhinovirus, there were no significant differences between detection of virus with or without face masks, both in respiratory droplets and in aerosols" "Our findings indicate that surgical masks can efficaciously reduce the emission of influenza virus particles into the environment in respiratory droplets, but not in aerosols" I should not have said "masks do more harm than good". There is certainly no study that shows that. But, there are downsides to wearing a mask. The worst would be, if they give people a false sense of security that prevents them from doing the things that we know are more important. Things like, distancing, staying out of large groups, washing their hands, etc. This was a very controlled trial, in a laboratory setting... even here, they show that masks are not effective at stopping virus spreading in aerosols. There have been MANY studies on this, for the flu. They all show the same thing. I am decidedly NOT "anti-science". I like science. I made my career in science. But, in the case of COVID, "science" has let us down. They've been wrong on many things. They have radically changed recommendations in a short amount of time. And, in far too many cases, the "science" has been politicized. "Science" won't admit the obvious: that COVID spread increased dramatically 2 weeks after massive, wide-spread protesting. Too political. Those kinds of things destroy public trust. I think that's very dangerous. I WISH, all we had to do was have everyone wear a face mask for 4-6 weeks to stop this virus. That's what the CDC Director just said. That's total BS. Will they help? Probably not, but maybe... a little. It's not a terrible inconvenience in most cases. It's exceptionally stupid to have to wear one at the beach, when you're 15 feet away from anyone. Or when you're out hiking on a trail and rarely see anyone. People should have the freedom to decide. And companies should be allowed the freedom to require them, or not, for their customers. We don't need government mandates. The benefit is just not as great as advertised. Not significant enough to mandate compliance. It is sad that mask wearing has become so political. I see MOST people wearing mask, voluntarily. And yet, cases are still spreading. I don't think the "All the time" decree from my Democrat Governor is going to do ANYTHING to change the trajectory of our cases. But, it makes Democrats "feel better". "Our findings indicate that surgical masks can efficaciously reduce the emission of influenza virus particles into the environment in respiratory droplets, but not in aerosols12. Both the previous and current study used a bioaerosol collecting device, the Gesundheit-II (G-II)12,15,19, to capture exhaled breath particles and differentiated them into two size fractions, where exhaled breath coarse particles >5 μm (respiratory droplets) were collected by impaction with a 5-μm slit inertial Teflon impactor and the remaining fine particles ≤5 μm (aerosols) were collected by condensation in buffer. We also demonstrated the efficacy of surgical masks to reduce coronavirus detection and viral copies in large respiratory droplets and in aerosols (Table 1b). This has important implications for control of COVID-19, suggesting that surgical face masks could be used by ill people to reduce onward transmission."
It is exactly what you asked for, and claimed that did not exist. You even copy and pasted the part that showed there was a significant reduction. So I assume you read that much, but still prefer to ignore the science in front of you, in favor of being anti-government. You couldn't be making my point for me any better.
I get the "MY FREEDOMS!" argument. But your freedoms end when you are voluntarily endangering others. It is like wearing a seat belt. Choosing not to wear one is not just endangering yourself, but others too. You could become a 200 lb projectile. Or you could lose control of your vehicle when you otherwise wouldn't. When you are sharing a public space, there are laws and rules put into place so you don't endanger others. Hence we have seat belt laws.
It would be great if everyone could do their part. It would be great if it wasn't political. But do you know what is causing this to be political? People completely rejecting science and saying things like masks do more harm than good. People valuing their freedom to not be slightly inconvenienced over the lives and well being of their neighbors. People calling someone the most despicable human being they've ever encountered, for suggesting that not wearing a mask in public during a global pandemic is idiotic.
I guess we will just sit here in America, pretending to believe in science while denying it in the same breath. We'll continue to assume there is nothing we could have done, except be proud that we stood up to the communist take over that started with mask policies. But America is still the greatest, we have people fighting for their freedom to not be mildly inconvenienced at the expense of their neighbor.
Meanwhile the rest of the world seems to have figured it out, and they'll just continue the travel bans until we figure it out ourselves.
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Post by Aufan on Jul 19, 2020 18:07:49 GMT
Agree 100% with Aufan. The idiocy is astonishing and it's inspired from the top....the narcissistic, ignoramus, spoiled snot toddler in the White House. The USA used to be looked up to among the advanced nations. Now we're pretty well pitied based on such a large portion of us worshiping at the altar of idiot trump, and the blind sheep 'cult' ( aka 'the base' ) can't seem to ween itself from the hypnotic spell of the toddler's apologists at Fox News. We're 4.3 percent of Earth's population with nearly 25% of Corona problems. We are NOT the envy of the world in how we are dealing with the pandemic as our idiot POTUS has claimed over and over. Furthermore we have great resources to fight and control it.....world class medical research universities, hospitals, physicians and infectious disease scientists. No excuses. It's just big big time DUMBTH ! The national leadership's war against science is one of the dumbest things in our entire history...right up there with the Civil War. Gonna miss CF fun with you guys this fall but it's not important. SEC football is not even important now. So stay safe, help fight the virus and let's make America intelligent again this fall. Over and out from the deep in the Blue Ridge. The anti-science sentiment is quite scary, and such a large population. If Republicans had something to gain from the earth being flat, you'd bet that the "round earth" would be an unproven science driven by liberals who want to take away your freedoms. Fox news would have flat earth experts to come and talk about it and a huge chunk of the population would believe in a flat earth.
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Post by Bevo on Jul 19, 2020 19:31:49 GMT
People calling someone the most despicable human being they've ever encountered, for suggesting that not wearing a mask in public during a global pandemic is idiotic.
Oh... my statement about your nature was based on a ton of history between us... not for your suggestion "that not wearing a mask in public in a global pandemic is idiotic."
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Post by Bevo on Jul 19, 2020 20:00:54 GMT
It is exactly what you asked for, and claimed that did not exist. If you can't stop aerosols, you can't stop a virus that is spread by aerosols. What I ask for was "one Random Controlled Trial that shows masking of the public helps prevent the spread of a virus" This one certainly doesn't qualify. There have been MANY such studies looking at influenza and SARS and others. They all show, general masking is ineffective. In PERFECT conditions, the study you posted shows that masks are ineffective against aerosols. At best, they help against droplets. But, that's not how such viruses are spread. In the REAL world, people have no clue about how they're supposed to wear and use masks. They wear masks that have openings 10-100X larger than a virus particle. They wear the same mask longer than it should be, rendering it completely ineffective. They constantly touch and adjust the mask. A convincing study would be one that looks at real world conditions... or, overall ACTUAL spread or containment. Such studies have been done. They ALL show, very poor correlation. But, hey? If it makes you feel good, and superior? Why not force it on everyone?
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Post by Aufan on Jul 19, 2020 22:52:37 GMT
It is exactly what you asked for, and claimed that did not exist. If you can't stop aerosols, you can't stop a virus that is spread by aerosols. What I ask for was "one Random Controlled Trial that shows masking of the public helps prevent the spread of a virus" This one certainly doesn't qualify. There have been MANY such studies looking at influenza and SARS and others. They all show, general masking is ineffective. In PERFECT conditions, the study you posted shows that masks are ineffective against aerosols. At best, they help against droplets. But, that's not how such viruses are spread. In the REAL world, people have no clue about how they're supposed to wear and use masks. They wear masks that have openings 10-100X larger than a virus particle. They wear the same mask longer than it should be, rendering it completely ineffective. They constantly touch and adjust the mask. A convincing study would be one that looks at real world conditions... or, overall ACTUAL spread or containment. Such studies have been done. They ALL show, very poor correlation. But, hey? If it makes you feel good, and superior? Why not force it on everyone? You are suggesting that the virus cannot be spread through respiratory droplets?
Since you ignore the obviously communist, leftist, propaganda machine Nature, that says it can be transmitted through respiratory droplets, I will post to a link you can trust:
I'm becoming embarrassed for you, you don't even know the basics. You ask for the science, then you deny the science when it is presented to you and substitute it with your own. You repeatedly state misinformation because the science goes against your anti-government positions. Instead you talk in generalities and gut feelings and believe people wearing masks just want to "feel good, and superior". It is you, and people like you, that have caused this to be political, and have absolutely hindered progress in containing this pandemic.
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Post by Bevo on Jul 20, 2020 20:30:03 GMT
You are suggesting that the virus cannot be spread through respiratory droplets? That's quite a leap there, Batman. I never said the virus can't be spread by respiratory droplets. Pretty stupid thing to suggest. If respiratory droplets were the ONLY method of transmission, or even the primary method of transmission, we'd all be in great shape. Sadly, for most respirator viruses, this is not the case. As usual, the rest of your post is sheer nonsense, not worthy of a response.
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Post by tigercpa on Jul 20, 2020 21:03:43 GMT
Expert Epidemiological panel from Oxford recent release and intervoiew:
By all means, wear a mask if you choose...just don't claim it's a decision based on evidence. The evidence regarding the efficacy of masks is weak (weak in medical terms means little or none at all). "Simply 'being on the side of science' is not evidence."
Lockdowns / stay-at-home / suppression - not a viable nor sustainable strategy. We must learn to live with the virus (as we do all other viruses), not run and hide from the virus.
--------------
Nobel Laureate (Science) and Stanford professor - no reason for general public to wear a mask, and lockdowns were the wrong answer as were were likely beyond 1% prevalence before most people noticed.
"Science failed us in February, and it's failing us again."
True, "experts" like Fauci (he's a politician - you don't get to be head of NIH without being a politician) have failed us time and again with their all-over-the place opinions.
He's recent praising of NY and of NE states in gerenal was pure garbage.
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Post by Aufan on Jul 20, 2020 21:34:49 GMT
I never said the virus can't be spread by respiratory droplets. Pretty stupid thing to suggest. In PERFECT conditions, the study you posted shows that masks are ineffective against aerosols. At best, they help against droplets. But, that's not how such viruses are spread.
Seriously, I'm embarrassed for you.
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Post by Bevo on Jul 20, 2020 22:18:08 GMT
I never said the virus can't be spread by respiratory droplets. Pretty stupid thing to suggest. In PERFECT conditions, the study you posted shows that masks are ineffective against aerosols. At best, they help against droplets. But, that's not how such viruses are spread.
Seriously, I'm embarrassed for you.
Oh, well... excuuuuuuuse me. I should have said: That's not the ONLY way such viruses are spread. I didn't say they "CAN'T" be spread that way. I know what some people are saying, regarding the mechanisms for spread. Back in May, they were all saying respiratory droplets were the primary mechanism. Now, new studies are suggesting otherwise. Previous, in-depth studies of other similar viruses have shown that aerosols are also important. I have NEVER told anyone not to wear a mask. I have been wearing a mask in public for months now. I think it's justified, at least until we understand more about this virus. I just get tired of hearing politicians, like my Governor today, saying "wearing masks will STOP the spread of COVID. They won't. At best, they will slow the spread. More is needed to "stop" it. You remain hopeless. It's impossible to have any kind of reasonable discussion with you about anything. I learned that long ago. Nothing has changed. So, this is the end.
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Post by EvilVodka on Jul 20, 2020 22:25:18 GMT
Don't know that I ever encountered a more despicable human being than you? Worst part is, you're clearly smart enough to be better. How is what I said despicable? There are very few reasons to not wear a mask. Two reasons we see being used are anti-science and anti-government sentiment. There is one very compelling reason to wear a mask, and it is live thy neighbor. It is why I wear one in public. Can you explain to me why someone would not wear a mask, unless they felt more strongly about being anti-government or anti-science than loving thy neighbor? What is despicable is not wearing a mask. A very simple and very doable thing. That you call me despicable for calling out those not wearing is the exact thing that makes this situation so frustrating. There's absolutely no scientific proof that masks or social distancing work...maybe you don't know what science is, but it's measurable proof
any reasonable logic and science with COVID got thrown out the window when the media turned a blind eye to the riots
even the testing is all jacked up, in all sorts of ways
can you definitively say when the Virus arrived? it's true origins? MANY people had weird flu-like illnesses back in FEBRUARY
the "science" behind all of this has been shot to hell
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Post by EvilVodka on Jul 20, 2020 22:28:43 GMT
Agree 100% with Aufan. The idiocy is astonishing and it's inspired from the top....the narcissistic, ignoramus, spoiled snot toddler in the White House. The USA used to be looked up to among the advanced nations. Now we're pretty well pitied based on such a large portion of us worshiping at the altar of idiot trump, and the blind sheep 'cult' ( aka 'the base' ) can't seem to ween itself from the hypnotic spell of the toddler's apologists at Fox News. We're 4.3 percent of Earth's population with nearly 25% of Corona problems. We are NOT the envy of the world in how we are dealing with the pandemic as our idiot POTUS has claimed over and over. Furthermore we have great resources to fight and control it.....world class medical research universities, hospitals, physicians and infectious disease scientists. No excuses. It's just big big time DUMBTH ! The national leadership's war against science is one of the dumbest things in our entire history...right up there with the Civil War. Gonna miss CF fun with you guys this fall but it's not important. SEC football is not even important now. So stay safe, do the right thing, help fight the virus and let's start to make America intelligent again this fall. Over and out from deep in the Blue Ridge. most likely the virus will have to work it's way through the population
blaming Trump is also incredibly stupid. He deferred to letting states call the shots, so if you don't like his response, you don't like the response of the majority of state governors
What should he have done? rolled out the military and rounded up anyone that was sick and burned them alive? oh wait, that was Chyna
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Post by Aufan on Jul 20, 2020 22:50:22 GMT
Seriously, I'm embarrassed for you.
Oh, well... excuuuuuuuse me. I should have said: That's not the ONLY way such viruses are spread. I didn't say they "CAN'T" be spread that way. I know what some people are saying, regarding the mechanisms for spread. Back in May, they were all saying respiratory droplets were the primary mechanism. Now, new studies are suggesting otherwise. Previous, in-depth studies of other similar viruses have shown that aerosols are also important. I have NEVER told anyone not to wear a mask. I have been wearing a mask in public for months now. I think it's justified, at least until we understand more about this virus. I just get tired of hearing politicians, like my Governor today, saying "wearing masks will STOP the spread of COVID. They won't. At best, they will slow the spread. More is needed to "stop" it. You remain hopeless. It's impossible to have any kind of reasonable discussion with you about anything. I learned that long ago. Nothing has changed. So, this is the end.
I agree, we cannot have a reasonable discussion. You ask for science, then deny the science by saying the virus does not spread by droplets. When I ask are you suggesting the virus doesn't spread by droplets, you deny it, saying that would be stupid to suggest that. When I show that you your own words saying the virus does not spread by droplets, you say you shouldn't have said that. At that point, you have nowhere else to go, so you end the discussion.
Of course this is not a reasonable discussion. You ask for science, ignore the science, and contradict yourself. Because you can't handle that you've been wrong multiple times, your response is that I am the unreasonable one, so you put your fingers in your ears. I'm the unreasonable one, in your mind, because I'm causing cognitive dissonance. You are pro-science, but believing the science I put in front of you would mean that some liberals in the government are correct. Of course it is easier just to say I'm being unreasonable and stop the discussion, than to face this cognitive dissonance.
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