|
Post by aufan on Nov 12, 2021 17:46:24 GMT
I was just applying your logic, that voting isn’t a right because it can be taken away. That’s not what makes a right. The semantics don’t matter to me or the argument so I’ll concede it’s a privilege.
Poor people are a product of our society and economy. They will exist, despite a belief that anyone can work themselves out of poverty. Denying them a basic privilege we consider a core part of our society is not respect.
And then your logic as to why they shouldn’t be able to vote, because they could vote for benefits for themselves. That’s not exclusive to the poor.
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Nov 12, 2021 20:33:19 GMT
I was just applying your logic, that voting isn’t a right because it can be taken away. That’s not what makes a right. The semantics don’t matter to me or the argument so I’ll concede it’s a privilege. Poor people are a product of our society and economy. They will exist, despite a belief that anyone can work themselves out of poverty. Denying them a basic privilege we consider a core part of our society is not respect. And then your logic as to why they shouldn’t be able to vote, because they could vote for benefits for themselves. That’s not exclusive to the poor. Ours is not the only economy that produces poor people. I've seen beggars in practically ALL of the 65+ countries I've visited. Yes, even in the Communist paradises like China and Russia. And, the socialist utopia's of Sweden, Belgium and Germany. Someone famous once said, "there will be poor always". But, it's not a completely stagnant group. Many people DO work themselves out of poverty. Others fall into it, temporarily, as bad things happen to them. Providing excess incentives makes it easier for people to accept "permanent poverty"... which, I think leads to a loss of personal dignity and happiness. But, what else can we do? We have to have some kind of social safety net. Which, is a big reason why we SHOULD be working hard to limit illegal immigration. We cannot supply this safety net to the entire world. Of course, you're right. Rich people can also vote benefits for themselves. And, poor people can decide to vote AGAINST their own personal interest, for the overall good of the country. I've only started worrying about this recently because, we're at or close to the level where less than 50% actually PAY income taxes. There's not a lot of support anymore for tax cutting, because... the majority already pay none. And yet, liberals say our tax code (one of the most progressive in the world) is not progressive enough! I'm not out protesting for this change, or even lobbying my representatives. It's just a thought exercise. I don't know how else you keep people from voting 'bread & circuses" for themselves.
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Nov 12, 2021 23:03:08 GMT
Poor people naturally occur in today's societies, we agree. Why dehumanize them by removing them from a core part of our society? If poor people always exist, we cannot blame poor people for existing. This is just victim blaming.
People voting for "bread & circuses" for themselves is not really a concern. In fact it is a good thing. Have you not studied history? Every system results in power and wealth being accumulated at the top... until the poor revolt.
Where are we now? Productivity grows while wages stay relatively stagnant (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-12-04/workers-get-nothing-when-they-produce-more-wrong). Billionaires are becoming space tourists while there are cases of people dying due to not being able to access insulin, something easily produced. Voting for "bread & circuses" for ourselves is the only way to take back the productivity that we contribute.
Voting is how we keep the balance. Further disenfranchising people who are already on the losing end of the system is just a way to accelerate us to the "revolt" stage of the process.
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Nov 13, 2021 16:06:13 GMT
Where are we now? Productivity grows while wages stay relatively stagnant (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-12-04/workers-get-nothing-when-they-produce-more-wrong). Did you even read the article you posted? Here's their conclusion: Productivity isn’t the only thing that helps workers, but it’s good anyway. I was rather amused to read all this scholarly debate about why wage increases haven't kept pace with productivity. What's funny is: How little "economist" seems to understand about basic economics. There is an easy explanation. It's a Law: Supply and Demand. Wages rise when companies who produce things or provide services CAN'T find workers. It really is, just that simple. It's happening all around us, right now. Governments can't force it, with mandate "minimum wages". All that does is further restrict access to low value jobs for people who have few skills to offer. Excessive immigration (legal and illegal) has increased the SUPPLY of workers. Automation, has dampened the DEMAND for workers, even as growth in the economy continued. Put the together, and BINGO: Productivity increase with stagnant wages. But, the good news is... wages have actually been steadily increasing since we started recovery from the financial crash in 2008. www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker Further disenfranchising people who are already on the losing end of the system is just a way to accelerate us to the "revolt" stage of the process. An even faster way to accelerate the "revolt" stage is : Start teaching children that the entire system is stacked against them and there's NOTHING they can do to make their own lives better. That's happening in schools today, and even bright young people like you seem to believe it. EDUCATION is the key to improving a person's lot in life. But, it can only be given to people who seek it. And, it's only the start. Part of the education must be: Responsibility for one's SELF and the need to actually WORK, HARD to get what you need and want.
|
|
|
Post by aufan on Nov 13, 2021 19:47:30 GMT
And again, if everyone had your education, then we would have educated, hard working people working minimum wage jobs. As you said, there will always be poor people.
If the economy and society needs these jobs done, it’s ridiculous to dehumanize the people that do them. Treating people like commodities is even more dehumanizing.
If someone’s labor isn’t deemed valuable enough, they are sub-human and don’t deserve to be treated the same as others. The biggest concern about them is that they might use what little influence they have to try to increase their minuscule slice of the pie.
From the article, in 40ish years productivity doubled while wages increased 50%. As automation improves and capital is further consolidated, that gap will continue to grow and more and more people will be takers… sub-humans who shouldn’t be able to participate elections.
It’s just an awful and depressing world view to have, especially when you acknowledge that these people will always exist.
|
|