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GOAG??
Feb 3, 2022 23:42:04 GMT
Post by Hero on Feb 3, 2022 23:42:04 GMT
I returned the book to the library so can't read his reasons for ranking Cy Young the 8th greatest pitcher of all time and 34th overall greatest player. Maybe because he lost more games than anyone in MLB history ??...I don't know. My biggest surprise was the omission of Shoeless Joe Jackson. Posnanski states that he didn't rank Jackson because he took gamblers money in the 1919 scandal yet he doesn't seem to de-value the juicers. For example he has Clemens ranked 3rd greatest pitcher. His top 8 pitchers : 1) Walter Johnson 2) Satchel Paige 3) Roger Clemens 4) Lefty Grove 5) Pete Alexander 6) Randy Johnson 7) Greg Maddox 8) Cy Young Surprising that neither Christy Mathewson, Bob Gibson , Steve Carlton , Bob Feller or Sandy Koufax made the top 8 pitchers. His reasoning, however is well developed. I highly recommend the book for baseball nuts.....and Posnanski welcomes debate but you can't out research him. It's amazing. Looking at this list tells me everything I need to know about him.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 0:27:04 GMT
Post by tigercpa on Feb 4, 2022 0:27:04 GMT
I returned the book to the library so can't read his reasons for ranking Cy Young the 8th greatest pitcher of all time and 34th overall greatest player. Maybe because he lost more games than anyone in MLB history ??...I don't know. My biggest surprise was the omission of Shoeless Joe Jackson. Posnanski states that he didn't rank Jackson because he took gamblers money in the 1919 scandal yet he doesn't seem to de-value the juicers. For example he has Clemens ranked 3rd greatest pitcher. His top 8 pitchers : 1) Walter Johnson 2) Satchel Paige 3) Roger Clemens 4) Lefty Grove 5) Pete Alexander 6) Randy Johnson 7) Greg Maddox 8) Cy Young Surprising that neither Christy Mathewson, Bob Gibson , Steve Carlton , Bob Feller or Sandy Koufax made the top 8 pitchers. His reasoning, however is well developed. I highly recommend the book for baseball nuts.....and Posnanski welcomes debate but you can't out research him. It's amazing. Looking at this list tells me everything I need to know about him. Maddux could throw a baseball thru a lifesaver.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 2:25:05 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 4, 2022 2:25:05 GMT
Back to Cy Young. A little research reveals that he won more games(511) than anyone and lost more games(313)than anyone...however :
Cy Young is NOT in the top ten in career ERA
Cy Young is NOT in the top ten in career winning percentage
Cy Young is NOT in the top ten in career strikeouts
Cy Young is 4th in career shutouts
...so maybe the guy knows what he's talking about.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 2:31:10 GMT
Post by Bevo on Feb 4, 2022 2:31:10 GMT
Back to Cy Young. A little research reveals that he won more games(511) than anyone and lost more games(313)than anyone...however : Cy Young is NOT in the top ten in career ERA Cy Young is NOT in the top ten in career winning percentage Cy Young is NOT in the top ten in career strikeouts Cy Young is 4th in career shutouts ...so maybe the guy knows what he's talking about. LOL yea... How many double-headers did Cy Young pitch? The guy was so crappy, they name the Pitcher of the Year award after him. For me, Drysdale, Gibson and Ryan are in the Top 5, for sure. Nolan was the best pitcher I ever saw in person.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 2:46:36 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 4, 2022 2:46:36 GMT
Ryan are you serious ? He was the strikeout king and had an overpowering fastball for sure( and a killer good late breaking curve ), but Bevo did you ever wonder why Nolan's career WP (.525) wasn't all that much higher than .500 ?......Wildness !. He had the worst control in major league pitching history and gave up tons of unearned runs and no pitcher will ever touch his career record for walks. (2,795). Nobody else had more than 1800. It's one of those untouchable records. If Nolan had decent control he could have been a Walter Johnson type and maybe a top 5 guy., but Nolan only finished 32 games above .500 in a 27 year career because of that horrendous control problem.. Posnanski ranked him but closer to 100 best than near the top.I remember his blurb about Nolan....".the best pitcher ever and the worst pitcher ever"
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 3:03:02 GMT
Post by Bevo on Feb 4, 2022 3:03:02 GMT
Ryan are you serious ? He was the strikeout king and had an overpowering fastball for sure( and a killer good late breaking curve ), but Bevo did you ever wonder why Nolan career WP wasn't all that much higher than .500 ?......Wildness !. He had the worst control in major league pitching history and gave up tons of unearned runs and no pitcher will ever touch his career record for walks. (2,795). Nobody else had more than 1800. It's one of those untouchable records. If Nolan had decent control he could have been a Walter Johnson type and maybe a top 5 guy. Yea.. he played the first half of his career with one of the WORST franchises in history. He WON, on a horrible team... because, he was just THAT dominating. I witnessed one Ryan no-hitter. I couldn't tell you the number of times I saw him take a no-hitter to the 8th inning. It was, a TON!
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 3:07:19 GMT
Post by Bevo on Feb 4, 2022 3:07:19 GMT
The first time I ever saw Nolan Ryan pitch, I was 5 or 6 years old. He was in High School, playing for Alvin Texas. He came to Lake Jackson to pitch in a playoff game and my dad took me to see this "phenom' pitcher. I will NEVER forget this. The 1st pitch he threw was a curveball, that didn't! It went OVER the backstop fence, and hit the concession stand. I turned to my dad and said, "This guy is supposed to be good?" The next pitch hit the catcher's mitt with a POP so loud, it scared me from the stands. When Nolan was "on" there were none better.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 3:12:53 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 4, 2022 3:12:53 GMT
The first time I ever saw Nolan Ryan pitch, I was 5 or 6 years old. He was in High School, playing for Alvin Texas. He came to Lake Jackson to pitch in a playoff game and my dad took me to see this "phenom' pitcher. I will NEVER forget this. The 1st pitch he threw was a curveball, that didn't! It went OVER the backstop fence, and hit the concession stand. I turned to my dad and said, "This guy is supposed to be good?" The next pitch hit the catcher's mitt with a POP so loud, it scared me from the stands. When Nolan was "on" there were none better. His teams had nothing to do with his worst control problem in MLB history !. (2795 walks !) I saw him pitch too. Oh he could bring it......Ryan, W Johnson, R Johnson, Feller... those guys had the overpowering heat but the others had control. Your comment about Maddox and his control was very good.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 3:26:36 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 4, 2022 3:26:36 GMT
Also, Bevo , do you realize that Nolan's career 3.19 ERA is not even in the top 150 all time ?
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 14:38:22 GMT
Post by Bevo on Feb 4, 2022 14:38:22 GMT
Also, Bevo , do you realize that Nolan's career 3.19 ERA is not even in the top 150 all time ? Do you realize that Nolan Ryan was the HARDEST PITCHER TO HIT AGAINST? He holds the record for lowest batting average allowed. 0.204 Sandy Koufax is #2. He was the hardest pitcher to get a hit against. Kind of sounds like the "hardest coach to beat". I don't know what other record could be more important? Isn't that a pitchers goal? Prevent hits? jugssports.com/blog/nolan-ryan-may-not-be-the-greatest-pitcher-ever-but-he-may-be-the-most-amazing-one/
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 14:59:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by tigercpa on Feb 4, 2022 14:59:25 GMT
Ryan are you serious ? He was the strikeout king and had an overpowering fastball for sure( and a killer good late breaking curve ), but Bevo did you ever wonder why Nolan's career WP (.525) wasn't all that much higher than .500 ?......Wildness !. He had the worst control in major league pitching history and gave up tons of unearned runs and no pitcher will ever touch his career record for walks. (2,795). Nobody else had more than 1800. It's one of those untouchable records. If Nolan had decent control he could have been a Walter Johnson type and maybe a top 5 guy., but Nolan only finished 32 games above .500 in a 27 year career because of that horrendous control problem.. Posnanski ranked him but closer to 100 best than near the top.I remember his blurb about Nolan....".the best pitcher ever and the worst pitcher ever" Ryan took a Bo Jackson hit to the mouth, still managed to get Bo out, and struck out 17 batters over 8 innings with blood pouring out of his mouth. So there’s that.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 15:00:41 GMT
Post by Bevo on Feb 4, 2022 15:00:41 GMT
Ryan is also NOT #1 in "walks per inning". It's Bobby Whit.
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 15:34:22 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 4, 2022 15:34:22 GMT
Like you said, when Nolan was at his very greatest he was unhitable but the other side of Nolan's coin tells a story too....the total picture. You obviously weren't aware of his control problems....similar is the Saban legend or Bear legend and hype. How many casual sports fans know that 40 other CF head coaches were more difficult to beat than the popular 'GOAT" ? ...Same thing with lots of hyped names....Brett Favre for example. How many casual FB fans realize that Brett ( the famous hyped 'gunslinger') is the career NFL leader in interceptions thrown and also sacked the most ? You, sometimes have to dig through the hype to get the big picture. I'm here for you, Bevo, to help you on that Back to Nolan : I did go back and checked Posnanski's list and Nolan was his 50th greatest player of all time ( higher than I remembered). That's quite a superlative ! This GOAT stuff is fun.
Nolan's story is one of those great "What Ifs" in sports... ...What if Nolan Ryan had control ? ....What If Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston etc. were allowed to play MLB in their primes ? ...what if Mickey Mantle was injury free ?
....what if Babe Ruth worked out and had nutrition and weight training ? and a whippy 26 oz bat ? .or even more frightening- took PEDs ?
...what if Knute Rockne (the true goat at the top level) had not died in a plane crash after only 11 seasons ? ....what if Walter Johnson had a good breaking ball ?
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 16:07:43 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 4, 2022 16:07:43 GMT
...and Bevo, here's a great quote from Posnanski that pretty well nails down Nolan : "Anything that a pitcher can do,he did better. Anything that a pitcher can do, he did worse "
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GOAG??
Feb 4, 2022 16:37:28 GMT
Post by Bevo on Feb 4, 2022 16:37:28 GMT
You obviously weren't aware of his control problems.... Why on earth would you say that Hen? I just told you, the first pitch I ever saw him throw hit the concession stand. I know that Ryan was the leader in walks... also wild pitches. When you throw everything at close to 100 mph, that happens. When you strike out as many as he did, walks don't hurt as bad. There aren't a LOT of things about Nolan than I don't know. My home town was about 20 miles from Alvin. He was a local Hero for all of us. I've met him several times. My youngest son's middle name is "Ryan".... Did you see this quote in the article I linked?? Many fans see it differently. The “Major League Baseball All-Century Team” was chosen by fan vote in 1999. More than two million voted, and Nolan Ryan received the most votes among pitchers, right ahead of Sandy Koufax.Two Million MLB fans voted.. NOLAN was #1. If you were a batter who was looking to add hits to your resume, Nolan was the LAST pitcher you wanted to face.
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