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GOAG??
Jan 10, 2023 20:12:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by Bevo on Jan 10, 2023 20:12:29 GMT
Love it
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GOAG??
Jan 28, 2023 17:12:37 GMT
Post by tigercpa on Jan 28, 2023 17:12:37 GMT
Surely, you understand how unfair it is to compare Win %'s of pitchers playing on GOOD teams vs SHITTY teams?? I'm not sure we can be friends if you can't see how unfair that is... friends
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GOAG??
Jan 28, 2023 18:27:50 GMT
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Post by Hero on Jan 28, 2023 18:27:50 GMT
Surely, you understand how unfair it is to compare Win %'s of pitchers playing on GOOD teams vs SHITTY teams?? I'm not sure we can be friends if you can't see how unfair that is... friendsOn of my favorites from one of the most quotable movies since MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL.
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GOAG??
Jan 28, 2023 20:18:51 GMT
Post by Bevo on Jan 28, 2023 20:18:51 GMT
Surely, you understand how unfair it is to compare Win %'s of pitchers playing on GOOD teams vs SHITTY teams?? I'm not sure we can be friends if you can't see how unfair that is... friendsWow... you got my obscure reference. I'm impressed. I love me some Huckleberry!
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GOAG??
Jan 28, 2023 21:19:10 GMT
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Post by Kentflash_05 on Jan 28, 2023 21:19:10 GMT
I returned the book to the library so can't read his reasons for ranking Cy Young the 8th greatest pitcher of all time and 34th overall greatest player. Maybe because he lost more games than anyone in MLB history ??...I don't know. My biggest surprise was the omission of Shoeless Joe Jackson. Posnanski states that he didn't rank Jackson because he took gamblers money in the 1919 scandal yet he doesn't seem to de-value the juicers. For example he has Clemens ranked 3rd greatest pitcher. His top 8 pitchers : 1) Walter Johnson 2) Satchel Paige 3) Roger Clemens 4) Lefty Grove 5) Pete Alexander 6) Randy Johnson 7) Greg Maddox 8) Cy Young Surprising that neither Christy Mathewson, Bob Gibson , Steve Carlton , Bob Feller or Sandy Koufax made the top 8 pitchers. His reasoning, however is well developed. I highly recommend the book for baseball nuts.....and Posnanski welcomes debate but you can't out research him. It's amazing. Cool facts “Shoelace” Joe Jackson and Cy Young both played for the Cleveland baseball team that because the Indians and now the Guardians. Actually looking through their history I’m surprised at how many legendary names may their way through Cleveland…… the Indians/Guards get thrown into the loves me losers category, because they’ve only won two World Series, but man their nearly 500 games above .500 all time and probably have only won two because for a long time they were in the same division as the Yankees whom were awesome. They should have won several in the 90’s but part of the Cleveland curse is finding ways to squander miles of talent ;( Came close a couple times though…… and then in 2007 and 2016 they would have beaten the Rockies and should have beaten the Cubs……. Always NEXT year though lol. They have a young team that is deep and loaded for the next several years in just about every area…… could use a little more pop though.
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GOAG??
Jan 28, 2023 22:04:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hero on Jan 28, 2023 22:04:42 GMT
Wow... you got my obscure reference. I'm impressed. I love me some Huckleberry! Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave.
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GOAG??
Jan 28, 2023 23:39:13 GMT
Post by bluehen on Jan 28, 2023 23:39:13 GMT
a great myth - Nolan pitched on 'shitty' teams.
Reality - teams Nolan played on were 2104- 2048 collectively (.507) Nolan was .526 on those teams
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GOAG??
Jan 29, 2023 4:15:28 GMT
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Post by Bevo on Jan 29, 2023 4:15:28 GMT
The Angels were pretty shitty, and that’s where he played his prime years. Other teams he played for, like Astros, were shitty until he got there. And even then, they were terrible hitting teams.
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GOAG??
Jan 30, 2023 15:03:46 GMT
Post by Hero on Jan 30, 2023 15:03:46 GMT
a great myth - Nolan pitched on 'shitty' teams. Reality - teams Nolan played on were 2104- 2048 collectively (.507) Nolan was .526 on those teams .507...you should present this evidence on MYTH BUSTERS. Face palm
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GOAG??
Jan 30, 2023 19:14:37 GMT
Post by tigercpa on Jan 30, 2023 19:14:37 GMT
"Just go body of work, Nolan Ryan is the greatest pitcher of all-time. He holds 55 major league pitching records. All-time strikeout leader, no-hitters with 7, and allowed fewest hit per nine innings all-time. Ryan was voted #1 in Master Cards pitchers of all-time in 1998.
Critics who are very jealous or just hate Ryan based on his strikeouts or even politics, will point to his win loss record. Ryan pitched on crappy teams. In 1987, Ryan was the ERA leader with an 8-16 record with Astros plus struck out the most, too at 270. So win-loss records are so deceiving."
From the TopTens of Sports
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GOAG??
Jan 31, 2023 1:04:51 GMT
Post by bluehen on Jan 31, 2023 1:04:51 GMT
Not to mention the all time base on balls leader and all time wild pitch leader.....by a mile.
" Of all things that pitchers do Nolan Ryan could do them better, and of all things pitchers do, Nolan Ryan could do them worse " ..........from 'Baseball's 100' by Joe Posnansky..
Probably helps to explain why Nolan's career W-L decision % ranks 535th best all time
CPA, that 87 Houston team finished 3rd in the NL West....ahead of the Dodgers, Braves and Padres so not all that severely 'crappy' (12 games below .500) Besides your example of 1987 represents 3.8 % of Nolan's career. Nolan's 535th best career winning success rate represents 100% of Nolan's career....pitching for above average teams (.507 collectively). 100% of anything tells you a more complete story than 3.8% of something especially in sports history.
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Post by tigercpa on Feb 1, 2023 13:10:47 GMT
bleacherreport.com/articles/77843-nolan-ryan-the-greatest-pitcher-everNolan Ryan pitched his first game for the New York Mets in 1966. He pitched his last game for the Texas Rangers in 1993. He broke into the bigs at age 19 and pitched until he was 46 years old. Over the course of those 27 years in the bigs (he had no major league games in 1967) he compiled a win-loss record of 324-292. Ryan pitched in 807 games, threw 222 complete games, and had 61 shutouts. He threw an incredible 5,386 innings and struck out 5,714 batters—an average of more than one an inning. Maybe even more incredible when compared to his strikeouts is that he only walked 2,795 hitters in all those innings—meaning that he struck out more than twice as many batters as earned walks against him. But all these stats don't tell the real story of Nolan Ryan. The real story is found in the fact that he only appeared in the postseason five times. He was almost always on teams which were mediocre at best and usually very, very bad. In his time in the two leagues his team’s win-loss percentage was .500. Besides the futile years with the Mets, both before and after '69, Ryan was stuck in California when the Angels were terrible. In his eight seasons in Anaheim, the Angels had winning records in only four years and they made the postseason only one year when they lost to Baltimore in 1979. With the Mets, Ryan pitched for six years for a team that had a combined batting average of .240. With the Angels his team's offensive production increased all the way to .253. With the Astros it was almost identical at .254 and with the Rangers he had a little more production as they managed a batting average of .260 while he was there. Was Nolan Ryan the greatest pitcher ever? That will always be argued. There can be little question that he was the most dominant pitcher of his time period—maybe of any period. He simply overpowered hitters with a fastball without equal and a curve that seemed to disappear. The fact that he played with the four teams he did, four teams that for the most part were just not good, makes his production even more remarkable. If he had pitched for Cincinnati's Big Red Machine, or the Yankees of the late ‘70s, or the A's of the early ‘70s, or the Orioles, his record would unquestionably have been much better. The fact that he achieved 324 wins with these teams has to give one pause to consider that Nolan Ryan is the greatest pitcher who ever toed a big league rubber.
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GOAG??
Feb 1, 2023 20:47:48 GMT
Post by bluehen on Feb 1, 2023 20:47:48 GMT
IF you want to explore great pitchers that played for teams far worse than Nolan's ( .507 win %) take a look at Walter Johnson with the Senators or even Steve Carlton with the Phillies and many more that won consistently with worse teams than Nolan pitched on. Johnson is probably the consensus GOAT among all the assorted greats although arguments can be made for Satchel Paige. Nolan rarely , if ever, shows up on any baseball historians top five (except yours) and only occasionally is found in a top 10. You don't understand the 'command' factor of pitching. If Nolan had consistent command of his great stuff....both a great breaking ball and fastball, he would likely be in the GOAT discussion and wouldn't have the 535th best winning success rate. He, flat out, had control problems.. Unearned runs count the same as earned runs in baseball decisions.
cPA, ever hear of Robert Allenby ? He holds the record for most hole-in-ones on the PGA tour. So was he the GOAT of golfers ? Most no hitters and strikeouts are untouchable individual Nolan records...but so are most walks and wild pitches.. It all adds up to 535th winning-est pitcher in MLB history . I'm a Nolan Ryan fan but he's one of the great 'What if' guys of sports........what if Nolan Ryan had good command and control of his pitches, what if Babe Ruth was on nutritional and weight training programs,or even scarier....on PEDs ?....etc.etc.
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