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Post by Bevo on Mar 5, 2019 3:58:46 GMT
Beware Bevo of custom selecting 'peak years' to determine sports GOATS. Peak years? Saban has coached a LONG time, in multiple places... His record encompasses 4 different schools, and at every one, he improved them. He's won every major coaching award there is, most of them multiple times. I don't say he's a candidate for GOAT because of any "peak" years.... quite the opposite. The BEST argument for Saban is the totality of his success. I only highlighted his time at Bama to compare his win% vs Knute, when they were both coaching in a similar situation: Ie, at a 'power' school.
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Post by bluehen on Mar 5, 2019 14:24:14 GMT
Then we get back to his "total Success" once again (.785) which is 54th best all time. There have been lots and lots of great program builders other than Nick. Urban Meyer, for example. He improved 3 of the 4 programs he inherited even more than Nick did. I'm glad you're reducing your perception of Saban as a "candidate" for GOAT than a GOAT lock.
Kehres is GOAT, hands down, but other reasonable candidates (maybe better called honorable mention ) in my view :
Rockne, Leahy, Reade, Meyer, Woodruff, Switzer, Osborne, Yost, Neyland, Wilkinson, Petersen, Devaney, Stoops, Thomas, Swinney, Saban, and Bryant.
In CF history about 85-90 CF HCs have won 75% of the time who coached at least 10 years. They are all masters of their craft.
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Post by Bevo on Mar 5, 2019 16:48:11 GMT
Then we get back to his "total Success" once again (.785) which is 54th best all time. LOL... You are too funny Hen. In one sentence, you go from embracing "total Success" back to the VERY NARROW slice known as "win %".
Nothing else matters...
Evaluating GOATs is pretty easy with that kind of narrow lens.
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Post by bluehen on Mar 5, 2019 17:23:38 GMT
Sure, there are other factors but can the 54th most difficult to beat head coach in college football history be the greatest of all time ? If so, that's a lot of 'other factors to consider.
I think these other guys might be tired of our GOAT discussions.
Next topic ?
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Post by Bevo on Mar 5, 2019 21:38:54 GMT
Sure, there are other factors but can the 54th most difficult to beat head coach in college football history be the greatest of all time ?
Absolutely, yes.
Win% is just that UNIMPORTANT to the discussion.
ALL of the coaches in the Top 100 of Win% have excellent records. Differences between them are largely driven by their chosen career paths... ie: where they chose (or were able) to work.
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Post by bluehen on Mar 6, 2019 1:33:33 GMT
Ok..now if Nick had a .565 career winning success rate would he still be the greatest of all time ?
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Post by Bevo on Mar 6, 2019 3:24:29 GMT
Ok..now if Nick had a .565 career winning success rate would he still be the greatest of all time ? depends... if he had that low a record because he started his career at Podunk U, who NEVER had a winning season until Nick arrived... and then when 0.45, 0.49, 0.52, 0.55 in 4 years... maybe. But, I tend to think, to be GOAT, there is a "minimum" level of win% that is required. I'm not sure what it is?? ... but, I'm DAMNED SURE that Nick's is high enough to be considered a ZERO detriment to any claim he has as GOAT. Hen... Nick is still coaching at the best program in the country. He's going to win another title, or two before he retires.... WHEN he does, there will be NO DEBATE anywhere. Like Tom Brady, the entire world will agree that he is the Greatest CF Coach (based on actual ACCOMPLISHMENT) of all time. I'm just telling you this because: It is as certain as the sun (barring a Luke Perry-type stroke)… and, I want you to have time to mentally prepare.
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Post by bluehen on Mar 6, 2019 13:25:06 GMT
O, thanks... I'm just trying to get a bare minimum career winning success rate out of you which would qualify a CF HC as the GOAT. So a .565 is a " maybe". What would a "definite" require ?
And another question : Is the GOAT recruiter the same as the GOAT pure coach ??
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Post by Bevo on Mar 6, 2019 15:41:23 GMT
O, thanks... I'm just trying to get a bare minimum career winning success rate out of you which would qualify a CF HC as the GOAT. So a .565 is a " maybe". What would a "definite" require ? And another question : Is the GOAT recruiter the same as the GOAT pure coach ?? Let's say... 0.750, Minimum. That's a pretty impressive list of coaches. Any of whom could be considered for GOAT if they had 7 National Titles.
The last question you asked is a good one. When I think "GOAT CF coach".... I'm thinking primarily of OVERALL ACCOMPLISHMENT. Who has actually achieved the most, over an extended period of time.
By "Most"... I'm thinking of things like Total Wins, Win%, Conference Championships, National Championships... Absence of scandal, Coaching awards, etc.
Coaching today at the highest level of CF is more like a CEO job. The programs are high dollar and complex. Large numbers of people are involved. The HC has to set the tone for behavior in the entire organization. He has to be able to recognize, recruit, and retain the BEST available assistant coaches. He has to be able to close the deal on top player recruits. And, he has to be able to judge talent... ie: make final decisions on who plays, when.... and, at the end of all that is, actual football coaching ability. X's and O's, and being able to teach fundamentals to kids.
At the beginning of a coach's career, that last part comes first. As they rise, to bigger and bigger programs, I suspect the "other stuff" starts to become more important. But, pure "player coaching" never goes away completely.
I think Saban benefitted from coaching at so many different places... He had a chance to work in a number of 'Good programs'... (Ohio State, Syracuse, Navy, etc..) I think these experiences helped him to develop his own "system"....
Did you know that in his only year at Toledo, he took a team that was previously at 0.500 level and went 9-2? While there, he turned down an application from Urban Meyer, who was looking for 'any coaching job'. Bad decision, that one... or bad luck. At the time, Meyer had zero resume.
Nick left Toledo after one year, to be Defensive Coordinator for the Cleveland Browns under Bill Belichick. Saban has often said, "Those were the worst 4 years of my life!"
When he got to Mich State, they were on probation (limited recruits), and hadn't had a winning season in 5 years. Nick took them to three straight bowl games. After a one year bowl absence, they went 9-2. That's when he got an offer from LSU.
At LSU, he won the SEC in year two, and a National Championship in Year 4. (BCS Title) win over Oklahoma... and then accepted a HIGH DOLLAR offer to go back to the NFL at Miami.
I think we both agree that he was not effective at Miami. One really bad decision hurt his chances there: Miami chose free agent Daunte Culpepper over another Free Agent, Drew Brees. Of course, we don't know exactly who made that decision, Nick.. or, the team owner. I wonder whether Nick might still be in Miami if they'd chosen differently?
Anyway... they didn't, Nick ended up in Bama... and, the rest is pure magic. No coach in history (at the BCS level) has had a better run than Nick's 12 years in Bama. Not even Rockne, at Notre Dame.
The dude is great coach... hands down. Is he the "Best X's & O's coach" in history? Hell no. But he's figured out the game of being HC at the highest collegiate level as well as anyone ever has. The sum of his accomplishments is already SECOND TO NONE. In another year or two, it will be BETTER THAN ANYONE. If that doesn't qualify him for serious GOAT consideration, then... we just have different opinions about what constitutes a "GOAT"?
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Post by bluehen on Mar 6, 2019 17:51:20 GMT
More than anything else in today's major CF climate Saban has figured out how to take the field with a superior talented roster than any opponent he has to face. He should never lose and he should NEVER EVER feel the need and choose to custom schedule 25% of his regular season wins vs FCS and mid-major opponents....all at home , of course, and avoid, at all costs, true road games vs top quality opponents.
I'll give you that he's a 'Mt Rushmore' recruiter.
What would you think of a HC that only lost 7% of all the games he ever coached ( not 21.5% ) never felt the need to schedule lower division rent-a-wins, and won 11 NCAA national titles without the help of one single opinion or vote ?
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Post by Bevo on Mar 6, 2019 18:28:25 GMT
What would you think of a HC that only lost 7% of all the games he ever coached ( not 21.5% ) never felt the need to schedule lower division rent-a-wins, and won 11 NCAA national titles without the help of one single opinion or vote ? I would think he's never coached at the BCS level.
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Post by Bevo on Mar 6, 2019 20:21:16 GMT
More than anything else in today's major CF climate Saban has figured out how to take the field with a superior talented roster than any opponent has to face.
yea... that's a BIG part of what a Head Coach is SUPPOSED to do.
That's how you win... sustainably.
I'm pretty sure Kehres did a similar thing at his level.
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Post by bluehen on Mar 7, 2019 3:39:21 GMT
Pretty sure ? There is nothing to measure talent superiority at the non scholarship DIII level....no recruiting rankings, insignificant NFL production so we can only speculate on that.
In Nick's 'peak' time he ALWAYS has superior talent vs his opponents. How many head coaches, past or present, would have Saban type numbers ( or better) if they had superior talent every game ?
I would say many...very many.
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Post by Bevo on Mar 7, 2019 3:54:05 GMT
Pretty sure ? There is nothing to measure talent superiority at the non scholarship DIII level....no recruiting rankings, insignificant NFL production so we can only speculate on that. In Nick's 'peak' time he ALWAYS has superior talent vs his opponents. How many head coaches, past or present, would have Saban type numbers ( or better) if they had superior talent every game ? I would say many...very many. I would say, EVERY coach WANTS superior talent. Most aren't able to get it. You act like recruiting is evil. It's BIG PART of coaching at the BCS level.
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Post by bluehen on Mar 7, 2019 12:21:17 GMT
Well then we agree, big time CF success is 98% recruiting..... Nick Saban is a legendary collector/recruiter of raw talent...Mt Rushmore level. That's the so called Saban 'Process'....simply having better athletes than the guy on the other sideline. That plus the 'custom' scheduling being very helpful. Many CF HCs could win big with that annual advantage and strategy. There are a few of us that suspect the 'most with the least' type football HCs might just be the truly great ones. Nick did find out that with a level talent playing field and with no custom scheduling allowed winning is significantly harder. He admitted that himself saying something like ' I returned to CF because I thought I'd have a better chance to be successful at that level'
College football's greatest of all time :
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