aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 12, 2024 5:22:14 GMT
lol. Yea. Right. I’m back to my original point. That boxing match was completely unfair and should NEVER have happened. For purposes of female sporting events, I believe having XY chromosomes should be disqualifying. And I’m back to my factual statements. You are a bigot because you call her a man based on how she looks with no other facts. And you have since double and triple downed on this. And with the facts you still can’t bring yourself to call her a woman. Why can’t you bring yourself to call her a woman? You are ignorant because you have contradicted yourself multiple times. You say multiple times that boxing should use swimming’s rules, which does not disqualify XY chromosomes. Then you also say multiple times that XY chromosome should be disqualifying. Which is it?
|
|
|
Post by ajbuckeye on Aug 12, 2024 14:28:21 GMT
The laws of Ohio have since changed, making that kind of situation impossible. Maybe, you missed it? MAGA laws supported letting States decide how they want to deal with abortion. You probably forgot, but about 2 years ago.. I told you, States would be moderating the laws that they reverted to when Roe v Wade was overturned. Opinions now are much different than they were in 1974. THAT is democracy in action. The SCOTUS hijacked the process 5 years ago. Now, we're catching up with the rest of the world. The people will get what they want on abortion.. or, their elected leaders will be voted out. And remember I dismantled this argument to the point everyone stopped responding. I can do it again, but that isn’t the topic at hand. My response is more narrow on focus. You guys were criticizing the democratic VP candidate. I respond that I prefer them to the MAGA-trash VP candidate. To be more specific on the point: “I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally,” Vance said in January 2022 on a podcast when running for Senate. amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/07/17/politics/kfile-jd-vance-abortion-commentsSo when you criticize the democrat VP candidate for giving 4th graders tampons, I will criticize the MAGA-trash VP candidate for wanting to force 4th graders to give birth. You do understand that every single thread you are apart of ends with you delivering the last response because you are so narrow minded in your opinions and keep regurgitating the same response over and over again to the point that it is not even worth it.
Trump's position is to put the decision back to the states. As Bevo stated the laws continue to change to reflect the will of the people. Do you live in the state of Ohio? Well maybe you should shut the hell up because it doesn't affect you.
The democrat position is to legalize abortion nationally. In Walz case he wants it up to the day of birth. I guess your OK with a women who is ready to deliver a baby and then decides she doesn't want it decides to have it, then have the doctor put a BB in its head on the way out. Gee you sure are the compassionate one.
He is also for allowing minors to be given gender transferring procedures and drugs without parental knowledge. I assume you are all about this one as well.
How you can't see the whole Olympic issue with an XY chromosomes competing against an XX is simply unbelievable. There have been may cases where XX have been hurt badly because they were forced to compete against an XY. Apparently you don't care about the safety of those people as well.
Do you have any kids? I am sure you don't have any daughters because there is no way a parent who cares about there daughters could possibly support the views you have.
I let you have the last response so you can claim that you won the arguement while you add to your list of criticisms and name calling. This time around you added bigot and ignorant. I see you have taken the democratic narrative and utilized wierd with a continual focus on utilize Mega-trash.
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 12, 2024 16:43:36 GMT
And remember I dismantled this argument to the point everyone stopped responding. I can do it again, but that isn’t the topic at hand. My response is more narrow on focus. You guys were criticizing the democratic VP candidate. I respond that I prefer them to the MAGA-trash VP candidate. To be more specific on the point: “I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally,” Vance said in January 2022 on a podcast when running for Senate. amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/07/17/politics/kfile-jd-vance-abortion-commentsSo when you criticize the democrat VP candidate for giving 4th graders tampons, I will criticize the MAGA-trash VP candidate for wanting to force 4th graders to give birth. You do understand that every single thread you are apart of ends with you delivering the last response because you are so narrow minded in your opinions and keep regurgitating the same response over and over again to the point that it is not even worth it.
Trump's position is to put the decision back to the states. As Bevo stated the laws continue to change to reflect the will of the people. Do you live in the state of Ohio? Well maybe you should shut the hell up because it doesn't affect you.
The democrat position is to legalize abortion nationally. In Walz case he wants it up to the day of birth. I guess your OK with a women who is ready to deliver a baby and then decides she doesn't want it decides to have it, then have the doctor put a BB in its head on the way out. Gee you sure are the compassionate one.
He is also for allowing minors to be given gender transferring procedures and drugs without parental knowledge. I assume you are all about this one as well.
How you can't see the whole Olympic issue with an XY chromosomes competing against an XX is simply unbelievable. There have been may cases where XX have been hurt badly because they were forced to compete against an XY. Apparently you don't care about the safety of those people as well.
Do you have any kids? I am sure you don't have any daughters because there is no way a parent who cares about there daughters could possibly support the views you have.
I let you have the last response so you can claim that you won the arguement while you add to your list of criticisms and name calling. This time around you added bigot and ignorant. I see you have taken the democratic narrative and utilized wierd with a continual focus on utilize Mega-trash.
People’s rights supersede state’s rights or the will of the people. This was decided over 150 years ago. That’s why abortion shouldn’t be decided at the state level. It’s a fundamentally flawed argument. Name one other case where one person is entitled to another person’s body. You guys are using confederate civil war era arguments, and you want me to take you seriously? You guys keep talking about XY chromosomes like you have seen test results for these boxers? Link please!
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Aug 12, 2024 20:22:52 GMT
lol. Yea. Right. I’m back to my original point. That boxing match was completely unfair and should NEVER have happened. For purposes of female sporting events, I believe having XY chromosomes should be disqualifying. You say multiple times that boxing should use swimming’s rules, which does not disqualify XY chromosomes. But swimming DOES disqualify XY chromosomes. That's their starting point. Did you actually watch the first boxing match against Italy? I doubt it. You're just a pro-trans Zealot who cares nothing about the integrity of female sports. All you care about it scoring internet troll points.
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 13, 2024 5:48:46 GMT
You say multiple times that boxing should use swimming’s rules, which does not disqualify XY chromosomes. But swimming DOES disqualify XY chromosomes. That's their starting point. Did you actually watch the first boxing match against Italy? I doubt it. You're just a pro-trans Zealot who cares nothing about the integrity of female sports. All you care about it scoring internet troll points. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. From your article: “ Testosterone levels — not XY chromosomes, which is the pattern typically seen in men — are the key criterion of eligibility in Olympic events where the sport’s governing body has framed and approved rules.” It continues later: “ The swim body’s world-leading rules additionally require transgender women athletes who did not benefit from male puberty to maintain testosterone levels below 2.5 nmol/L.” You literally posted the article, I presume you read it, and you still ignore the facts because they don’t align with your opinion. Let’s go to the actual swimming eligibility policy: “ Male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the women’s category in FINA competitions and in other events recognized by FINA if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later….” It goes on to list the eligibility requirements for those with an XY chromosome. Once again the MAGA-trash posts lies, I correct those lies, and then I get painted as a troll or left wing nutjob for correcting those lies.
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Aug 13, 2024 17:45:38 GMT
But swimming DOES disqualify XY chromosomes. That's their starting point. Did you actually watch the first boxing match against Italy? I doubt it. You're just a pro-trans Zealot who cares nothing about the integrity of female sports. All you care about it scoring internet troll points. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. From your article: “ Testosterone levels — not XY chromosomes, which is the pattern typically seen in men — are the key criterion of eligibility in Olympic events where the sport’s governing body has framed and approved rules.” It continues later: “ The swim body’s world-leading rules additionally require transgender women athletes who did not benefit from male puberty to maintain testosterone levels below 2.5 nmol/L.” You literally posted the article, I presume you read it, and you still ignore the facts because they don’t align with your opinion. Let’s go to the actual swimming eligibility policy: “ Male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the women’s category in FINA competitions and in other events recognized by FINA if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later….” It goes on to list the eligibility requirements for those with an XY chromosome. Once again the MAGA-trash posts lies, I correct those lies, and then I get painted as a troll or left wing nutjob for correcting those lies. Still trying to win troll points? Are they really more important to you than just having a discussion? Yes... I read the entire article. Did you fail to see this line? I highlighted it for you... to aid your understanding. World Aquatics is not actively testing junior athletes. The first step for athletes is that national swim federations “certify their chromosomal sex.”WA is not directly testing. They just require the various countries to first certify the chromosomal sex of the athletes. I also found and read World Aquatic's guidelines. resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdfThey're obviously smart people who have put some work into developing this policy. For legal protection they make it very clear that they are not excluding athletes SOLELY based on XY Chromosome status with the words you highlighted; athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s categoryBut then, they specifically outline additional requirements for athletes that have XY chromosomes: if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later…That's a pretty big 'If"... not just on this page. They lay out very specific, onerous requirements that likely make it impossible for most athletes to compete. Maybe, in the future, now that the policy is known? Then, WA further protects themselves from lawsuits by turning the decision over to a third party, and "Independent Expert". The Independent Expert shall have the medical and/or scientific credentials and
expertise necessary and relevant for the assessments at issue. In selecting an
Independent Expert, the FINA Executive may, but need not, draw from experts in the
athlete’s region. Very nice.. The Expert is granted the right of "requesting further information from the athlete and/or the athlete's physician, and/or
conducting an independent physical examination of the athlete, and/or obtaining opinions from other relevant experts".
So, no... WA is not excluding XY Chromosome athletes from competition SOLELY because of their condition, but they are requiring testing and making it exceedingly difficult for them to compete. If the athletes can prove that they have not benefited from going through puberty as a male, and never had elevated testosterone levels, then.. MAYBE, they are allowed. If the Independent Expert thinks it's fair. Sounds like a well-reasoned policy to me. Why didn't the boxing commission just copy it back in 2022? Then we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, we'd probably have two different gold medal boxers.
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 13, 2024 19:33:41 GMT
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. From your article: “ Testosterone levels — not XY chromosomes, which is the pattern typically seen in men — are the key criterion of eligibility in Olympic events where the sport’s governing body has framed and approved rules.” It continues later: “ The swim body’s world-leading rules additionally require transgender women athletes who did not benefit from male puberty to maintain testosterone levels below 2.5 nmol/L.” You literally posted the article, I presume you read it, and you still ignore the facts because they don’t align with your opinion. Let’s go to the actual swimming eligibility policy: “ Male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the women’s category in FINA competitions and in other events recognized by FINA if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later….” It goes on to list the eligibility requirements for those with an XY chromosome. Once again the MAGA-trash posts lies, I correct those lies, and then I get painted as a troll or left wing nutjob for correcting those lies. Still trying to win troll points? Are they really more important to you than just having a discussion? Yes... I read the entire article. Did you fail to see this line? I highlighted it for you... to aid your understanding. World Aquatics is not actively testing junior athletes. The first step for athletes is that national swim federations “certify their chromosomal sex.”WA is not directly testing. They just require the various countries to first certify the chromosomal sex of the athletes. I also found and read World Aquatic's guidelines. resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdfThey're obviously smart people who have put some work into developing this policy. For legal protection they make it very clear that they are not excluding athletes SOLELY based on XY Chromosome status with the words you highlighted; athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s categoryBut then, they specifically outline additional requirements for athletes that have XY chromosomes: if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later…That's a pretty big 'If"... not just on this page. They lay out very specific, onerous requirements that likely make it impossible for most athletes to compete. Maybe, in the future, now that the policy is known? Then, WA further protects themselves from lawsuits by turning the decision over to a third party, and "Independent Expert". The Independent Expert shall have the medical and/or scientific credentials and
expertise necessary and relevant for the assessments at issue. In selecting an
Independent Expert, the FINA Executive may, but need not, draw from experts in the
athlete’s region. Very nice.. The Expert is granted the right of "requesting further information from the athlete and/or the athlete's physician, and/or
conducting an independent physical examination of the athlete, and/or obtaining opinions from other relevant experts".
So, no... WA is not excluding XY Chromosome athletes from competition SOLELY because of their condition, but they are requiring testing and making it exceedingly difficult for them to compete. If the athletes can prove that they have not benefited from going through puberty as a male, and never had elevated testosterone levels, then.. MAYBE, they are allowed. If the Independent Expert thinks it's fair. Sounds like a well-reasoned policy to me. Why didn't the boxing commission just copy it back in 2022? Then we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, we'd probably have two different gold medal boxers. Discussions start with agreement on the facts. Discussions cannot happen when one side is making up things and calling them facts. Maybe with your research you have learned that it is not the Y chromosome the WA is concerned about, but the effects of testosterone. It is nuanced and complicated, with dozens of different ways this can manifest, which is why they call on independent experts. Want a real discussion? Why can’t you call her a woman? Is this how you would handle this situation with someone in person that you knew? This is the most disturbing part of it all. It’s not that you don’t even know the nuance of what you’re arguing. Nor that you’re taking word of mouth rumors from the Russians as fact. It’s that you’re attacking an amateur athlete because you don’t like the IOC policy and/or American policy.
|
|
|
Post by Bevo on Aug 14, 2024 0:13:42 GMT
Well, you're right about one thing: I DON'T like the policy of the IOC or the NCAA. You can't just let males call themselves females and compete against women in sports.
I get that it's complicated, and nuanced.. which is why I will not say whether Imane is a woman. I don't know. In the ring, she sure didn't LOOK like a woman. (I use the feminine pronoun out of respect for the way she identifies. Which is what I would do if I knew her). But none of that matters. We don't know whether she would qualify under WA guidelines, because boxing didn't care enough to attempt to define it.
I bet, they will now.
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 14, 2024 6:05:28 GMT
Well, you're right about one thing: I DON'T like the policy of the IOC or the NCAA. You can't just let males call themselves females and compete against women in sports. I get that it's complicated, and nuanced.. which is why I will not say whether Imane is a woman. I don't know. In the ring, she sure didn't LOOK like a woman. (I use the feminine pronoun out of respect for the way she identifies. Which is what I would do if I knew her). But none of that matters. We don't know whether she would qualify under WA guidelines, because boxing didn't care enough to attempt to define it. I bet, they will now. The part about calling her a woman is not complicated or nuanced. She was raised as a woman and identifies as a woman. Would you treat a coworker, friend or acquaintance the same say? Refuse to acknowledge that they are a woman based on a rumor and the way she looks?
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Aug 14, 2024 13:40:41 GMT
Being "raised as a woman" and her passport says "woman" might be the two weakest arguments I've seen.
Suppose Hero was raised as a wolf by wolves in Alabama. Does that make him wolf?
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 14, 2024 19:10:35 GMT
Rowling and Musk named in a lawsuit. Imagine having billions and so much influence, and you use it to lie about and harass an amateur athlete.
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 14, 2024 19:17:56 GMT
Being "raised as a woman" and her passport says "woman" might be the two weakest arguments I've seen. Suppose Hero was raised as a wolf by wolves in Alabama. Does that make him wolf? I don’t think you understood. If Hero were raised a man and identified as a man, but there was a rumor he wasn’t a man, would you refuse to call him a man? I am speaking outside of boxing, eligibility, etc., and curious about Bevo’s inability to call someone a woman, and how they would handle this in-person with someone they knew.
|
|
|
Post by ajbuckeye on Aug 14, 2024 21:46:00 GMT
I am confused. Is Leo Thomas a man or women? Is it Mike or Michelle Obama? I am born with a penis and declare I am a women, then am I a women? Is it possible to identify as a man or a women differently within the same day? If so should I be offended if someone refer to me as a man and at the time I was identifying as a women? What is the factual information that has been presented in this thread? Did I say I was confused?
|
|
aufan
Full Member
Posts: 204
Member is Online
|
Post by aufan on Aug 15, 2024 9:36:24 GMT
I am confused. Is Leo Thomas a man or women? Is it Mike or Michelle Obama? I am born with a penis and declare I am a women, then am I a women? Is it possible to identify as a man or a women differently within the same day? If so should I be offended if someone refer to me as a man and at the time I was identifying as a women? What is the factual information that has been presented in this thread? Did I say I was confused? You make a good point about asking for the factual information. I have been asking for the facts about Imane this whole time. And just like every other conservative fake news story in this thread, nobody can provide the facts to back up their statements.
|
|
|
Post by ajbuckeye on Aug 15, 2024 15:15:19 GMT
I am confused. Is Leo Thomas a man or women? Is it Mike or Michelle Obama? I am born with a penis and declare I am a women, then am I a women? Is it possible to identify as a man or a women differently within the same day? If so should I be offended if someone refer to me as a man and at the time I was identifying as a women? What is the factual information that has been presented in this thread? Did I say I was confused? You make a good point about asking for the factual information. I have been asking for the facts about Imane this whole time. And just like every other conservative fake news story in this thread, nobody can provide the facts to back up their statements. So what are your facts that Imane is a women???
|
|