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Post by aufan59 on Feb 14, 2016 2:21:43 GMT
Well... kudos to you for figuring out how to do properly format multiple quotes... I still haven't figured it out. Just click the BBCode down at the bottom. It allows you to do the same [ quote] [ /quote] as before. Our system of government was supposed to be about providing equal opportunity. Not making sure we all have equal burdens. Taking from each, according to his means is a tried, and failed practice.
If the majority of Americans are net "takers"... then, yes... by all means, they should NOT be voting.
I drive on the same roads and I'm protected by the same police as the guy who makes 1/2 as much as me. I don't mind paying more in taxes because I benefit more than him. This city, state and country allow me to have over 2x the discretionary income that he does, so I don't mind paying more for that. There is nothing selfish about having children. In fact, it's about the most un-selfish thing you can do. It's a life time commitment to love someone even more than you love yourself. It's a social responsibility to give back to society... to do your part in sustaining the chain of productive citizens. It's a sacrifice of time, money... (LOTS of money) and emotion. All with the purpose of doing the best you can to prepare another person to be the best they can be.
If all I cared about was me? If I had stayed alone and kept all my earnings to myself? I'd easily be retired right now and playing golf every day. But, I have chosen to do all in my power to raise two fine young men to continue the success of our species.
You may choose to not participate in the circle of life, it's your right. But.... don't fool yourself about which decision is "selfish".
I never claimed that having children was selfish. But I don't like selfish arguments for having children (they bring so much joy! etc.) I still don't think I owe society enough to gamble on a human life that is not my own. The cancer rates in my family are a pretty good justification to avoid this gamble, yet I can think of many other reasons.
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Post by FLORIDA HERD FAN on Feb 14, 2016 6:12:46 GMT
Actually, aufan, you might be doing society a favor by not procreating.
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Post by aufan59 on Feb 14, 2016 15:58:51 GMT
Actually, aufan, you might be doing society a favor by not procreating. I'm glad we agree on this.
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Post by Bevo on Feb 14, 2016 17:25:23 GMT
Just click the BBCode down at the bottom. It allows you to do the same [ quote] [ /quote] as before. THANKS!!! I drive on the same roads and I'm protected by the same police as the guy who makes 1/2 as much as me. I don't mind paying more in taxes because I benefit more than him. This city, state and country allow me to have over 2x the discretionary income that he does, so I don't mind paying more for that. I don't mind paying more either... Assuming I have more. But, I see no reason for paying a larger percentage. We are a country of equal opportunity. The road doesn't care who is using it... we all have equal ability to use the road. We are not guaranteed equal discretionary income. That part, is up to us. never claimed that having children was selfish. Riiiighht. You just said you weren't aware of any non-selfish reasons for having kids.. That' such a major distinction. Can't see how I missed that. But I don't like selfish arguments for having children (they bring so much joy! etc.) Why? Do you think yourself not worthy of having joy? Do you also avoid foods that others praise? Or books that people tell you you'll love? I still don't think I owe society enough to gamble on a human life that is not my own. The cancer rates in my family are a pretty good justification to avoid this gamble, yet I can think of many other reasons. Good thing everyone doesn't feel the same. Cancer is not proven to be strictly genetically caused. "Rates" are not entirely predictive. That's a pretty lame excuse. Consider this: In the macro sense, Muslims and Catholics are having LOTS of children. If all the thinking atheist stop having them, pretty soon.. no more atheist.
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Post by aufan59 on Feb 15, 2016 2:02:18 GMT
THANKS!!! I don't mind paying more either... Assuming I have more. But, I see no reason for paying a larger percentage. We are a country of equal opportunity. The road doesn't care who is using it... we all have equal ability to use the road. We are not guaranteed equal discretionary income. That part, is up to us. I make $100 and Bob makes $50. We both pay $10 for essentials (home,food,shelter). If we're both taxed 10% of gross, I pay 10 and he pays 5. That means 11.1% ($10 of $90) of my discretionary goes to taxes, and 12.5%($5 of 40) of his discretionary goes to taxes. I'm really paying a lower percent than Bob, but I get more utility out of them. I said I don't care for selfish arguments for having children, but I would entertain non selfish arguments. I don't have to gamble on another human's life to derive joy from food or books. That was just one example. Lots of uncertainty in the future, I don't see a reason to bring someone else into it. Especially because I don't want a child. Even if that were true, it would be a very silly reason to have a child.
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Post by Bevo on Feb 15, 2016 3:34:16 GMT
I'm really paying a lower percent than Bob, but I get more utility out of them. Nonsense... you're BOTH paying 10%. What you're able to do with your remaining money is up to you. It's none of the government's business. You DO know how to calculate %'s, right? Especially because I don't want a child. So... once we got past all the smokescreen bullshit, it really is just a selfish reason?
But, that's Ok. This is America. Land of freedom. Where you have the right to be selfish if you choose.
Unless, of course... Obama decides to mandate that you MUST have kids.
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Post by GatorGrad on Feb 15, 2016 15:10:21 GMT
Being married is awesome.
Having married unprotected sex with your wife is awesome.
Having kids and raising them with your married partner for life is awesome.
That is all.
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Post by Bevo on Feb 15, 2016 16:44:08 GMT
Being married is awesome. Having married unprotected sex with your wife is awesome. Having kids and raising them with your married partner for life is awesome. That is all.
So, to summarize: Everything is awesome?
I wholeheartedly agree...
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Post by FLORIDA HERD FAN on Feb 15, 2016 17:58:39 GMT
GG: "Having married unprotected sex with your wife is awesome."
With my wife? Say what?
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Post by Bevo on Feb 15, 2016 18:42:53 GMT
This is America. Land of freedom. Where you have the right to be selfish if you choose. Yes, I'm quoting myself. I like being sarcastic most of the time, but.... I'm not comfortable with the tone of that last comment. So, I want to tell you what I TRULY believe:
Having kids or not having kids is, quite likely, the most important decision you will ever make in your life. You have every right to make that decision for purely selfish reasons. I encourage it.
Having kids CHANGES YOUR LIFE.
Getting married is a big thing... but, it doesn't change your life nearly as much as children do. The main change with marriage is: you know who your date is every night. Once you have kids? Nothing is ever the same.
There are a LOT of horrible, terrible things about having kids... you get NO sleep, less sex, more worries, it's damn near financial ruin, and puke in places you don't even want to thing about. On the other hand, there are immeasurable benefits... How do you put a price on having the privilege of participating in the development of your own prodigy? How can you define the benefits of family?
If you don't want to have kids? By all means, DON'T. No one should every question your reasons. I sure never would (for real) If you decide one day that you do? Then, I wish you all the best. It's a scary proposition, for sure.
I never, ever had a doubt. For me, the #1 reason was... I wanted a chance to give back all the wonderful things my parents gave to me.
Had you not started this conversation, I don't think I would have ever thought so deeply about the "why"? Now that I have, I'm pretty confident that the above was the reason. And, I'm more at peace with the decisions I've made.
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Post by Hero on Feb 15, 2016 19:06:22 GMT
This is America. Land of freedom. Where you have the right to be selfish if you choose. Yes, I'm quoting myself. I like being sarcastic most of the time, but.... I'm not comfortable with the tone of that last comment. So, I want to tell you what I TRULY believe:
Having kids or not having kids is, quite likely, the most important decision you will ever make in your life. You have every right to make that decision for purely selfish reasons. I encourage it.
Having kids CHANGES YOUR LIFE.
Getting married is a big thing... but, it doesn't change your life nearly as much as children do. The main change with marriage is: you know who your date is every night. Once you have kids? Nothing is ever the same.
There are a LOT of horrible, terrible things about having kids... you get NO sleep, less sex, more worries, it's damn near financial ruin, and puke in places you don't even want to thing about. On the other hand, there are immeasurable benefits... How do you put a price on having the privilege of participating in the development of your own prodigy? How can you define the benefits of family?
If you don't want to have kids? By all means, DON'T. No one should every question your reasons. I sure never would (for real) If you decide one day that you do? Then, I wish you all the best. It's a scary proposition, for sure.
I never, ever had a doubt. For me, the #1 reason was... I wanted a chance to give back all the wonderful things my parents gave to me.
Had you not started this conversation, I don't think I would have ever thought so deeply about the "why"? Now that I have, I'm pretty confident that the above was the reason. And, I'm more at peace with the decisions I've made.
There is no doubt, becoming a father is the hardest job I have ever lover. Never let anyone talk you into having kids. That is a decision you must make for yourself. Kids are wonderful and crazy and hard headed and easy to love and hard not to dislike. They don't come with instructions and you are forced to wonder about every decision. I wouldn't trade my daughter for anything. Grandfather is even better.
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Post by aufan59 on Feb 15, 2016 19:14:29 GMT
I'm really paying a lower percent than Bob, but I get more utility out of them. Nonsense... you're BOTH paying 10%. What you're able to do with your remaining money is up to you. It's none of the government's business. You DO know how to calculate %'s, right? Especially because I don't want a child. So... once we got past all the smokescreen bullshit, it really is just a selfish reason?
But, that's Ok. This is America. Land of freedom. Where you have the right to be selfish if you choose.
Unless, of course... Obama decides to mandate that you MUST have kids. A lower percent of my discretionary income is taxed compared to his. I don't think that is fair. I don't want a child, but I also don't want to gamble with a life other than my own. Not wanting to introduce a new life to a world that is full of uncertainty isn't selfish to me. The kid could have a miserable life and I would ultimately be responsible. You only reasonable argument is that I owe it to society, but there are enough people in the world. I could easily argue that I owe it to society to not contribute to overpopulation.
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Post by Bevo on Feb 15, 2016 19:41:43 GMT
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Post by GatorGrad on Feb 15, 2016 23:36:29 GMT
GG: "Having married unprotected sex with your wife is awesome." With my wife? Say what? LOL
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Post by aufan59 on Feb 16, 2016 0:01:47 GMT
The point remains the same. As a ratio of taxes paid to discretionary income, my tax rates are lower than his. Yet I got more utility out of the taxes.
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