|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 16, 2017 10:35:53 GMT
No hiding behind 2A...only the military has assault weapons - civilians can only buy downgraded versions of those weapons. Although, one could argue that the public should have access to those types of weapons, if the government does, based on the founders intent. Even in Heller Scalia stated "... the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms and not just to those in existence at the time of the founding." He got that part correct.
I've never seen lunatics buying weapons or ammo at Wal-Mart or at "unregulated" gun shows.
In fact, I was at the gun show Sunday afternoon at Dulles Expo and VSP now offers background checks for private sellers who wish to confirm their buyer is legally able to purchase a firearm while at the gun show.
There's no condition on our right to bear arms, regulations included. They shall not be infringed. Today, we think of "regulation" or "well regulated" as an army of bureaucrats dreaming up conditions and rules. That is the exact opposite of the founders intent.
The ATF shouldn't be expanded, it should be abolished, and simply folded into the existing FBI.
The federal licensed dealers certainly are required to do background checks. Do you think there might be some selling and buying of deadly weapons out there by unlicensed dealers Any lunatic in this country that wants to do harm with guns can very easily get hold of anything he/she needs..........the only industrialized nation on Earth in which it's so easy. Of course - lawful, private sales happen everyday, and 99% of them never result in any crime. I have both purchased and sold firearms in private sales here in VA.
Any lunatic in this country that wants to do harm - there's the key phrase and you make an excellent point.
This is part of the problem....The VaTech shooter should have never been allowed to purchase a handgun, given that a VA Court had adjudicated him as a danger to himself and others. The Pulse shooter was under investigation for suspicion of terrorist activities, and he was also allowed to buy guns. They perhaps didn't flag his purchase to the dealer for fear of tipping him off that he was under surveillance.
The state of VA feared getting sued if they had provided this information.
When legislation that would prevent these types of events from occurring, some civil rights group always steps in and fights the NRA (the NRA supports these measures - as well as proper background checks) saying it violates a persons right to privacy (disclosure of mental health status) or their civil rights or somesuch nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 16, 2017 10:48:41 GMT
How the US compares to other countries:
|
|
|
Post by bluehen on Jun 16, 2017 21:32:04 GMT
Do you know what 'industrialized nations' means ?
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 17, 2017 0:40:29 GMT
Do you know what 'industrialized nations' means ? Yeah, and why must we limit the comparison to "industrialized nations" or "developed countries"? Because "they" said so?
It's a lazy analysis (makes for good and "scary" lead stories on the nightly news cycle). But these are the only countries the US shall be compared to, we are told, because the US shall only be compared to “developed” countries when analyzing its murder rate and gun ownership. And yet, no reason for this is ever given. What is the criteria for deciding that the United States shall be compared to Luxembourg but not to Mexico, which has far more in common with the US than Luxembourg in terms of size, history, ethnic diversity, and geography?
"Inclusive is better than voting" certain countries to be in the comparison - it's pure confirmation bias. 100% of something will tell you more than a cherry-picked subset, as you are fond of saying about football stats.
But these are the only countries the US shall be compared to, we are told, because the US shall only be compared to “developed” countries when analyzing its murder rate and gun ownership. And yet, no reason for this is ever given. What is the criteria for deciding that the United States shall be compared to Luxembourg but not to Mexico, which has far more in common with the US than Luxembourg in terms of size, history, ethnic diversity, and geography?
Why compare the US to mono-ethnic countries like Japan and Korea?
What happens when we compare similar HDI's from the UN?
Ooops...that goes against the preferred narrative.
I also know that 80%+ of the gun crime comes from only a few zip codes in the US.
Take blacks out of the data and US = Belgium.
What Mexico, Chicago, Baltimore, Los Angeles and the non-violent states show you is that the correlation between gun control and safety is not real. Its propaganda.
Britain just has a bunch of knife related murders now instead, which is why they have their stupid knife regulation and prohibition laws.
|
|
|
Post by FLORIDA HERD FAN on Jun 17, 2017 2:16:31 GMT
I'm not sure that it is that simple. I am strongly pro Second Amendment, but there is little dispute that the U.S. stands pretty much alone among the developed nations in gun related homicides. I can accept that as a price to pay for the freedom to own and bear arms.
What the graphic illustrates is that there is a second factor - low incomes. Gun violence is highest proportionally in the U.S. in impoverished inner cities, and in impoverished Western Hemisphere countries.
However, with a couple of exceptions, this poverty correlation doesn't seem to hold outside of the Western Hemisphere. Culture might be a strong factor. It is worth studying.
First, the zealots on both sides have to get out of the way.
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 17, 2017 13:48:36 GMT
I'm not sure that it is that simple. I am strongly pro Second Amendment, but there is little dispute that the U.S. stands pretty much alone among the developed nations in gun related homicides. I can accept that as a price to pay for the freedom to own and bear arms. What the graphic illustrates is that there is a second factor - low incomes. Gun violence is highest proportionally in the U.S. in impoverished inner cities, and in impoverished Western Hemisphere countries. However, with a couple of exceptions, this poverty correlation doesn't seem to hold outside of the Western Hemisphere. Culture might be a strong factor. It is worth studying. First, the zealots on both sides have to get out of the way. Excellent post.
|
|
|
Post by bluehen on Jun 19, 2017 12:20:35 GMT
cpa, you're in that same area as the ball field shooter. Just curious.....are you in the same 'well regulated militia' unit as that guy and did you know him ?..If so who is the commander of that 'well regulated militia' unit ? ....or was the baseball shooter still a member of a St Louis 'well regulated militia' unit who crashed the Alexandria, Va 'well regulated militia' unit's geographical jurisdiction without authorization...in other words a renegade 'well regulated militiaman'.
|
|
|
Post by bluehen on Jun 19, 2017 12:24:46 GMT
cpa, you're in that same area as the ball field shooter. Just curious.....are you in the same 'well regulated militia' unit as that guy and did you know him ?..If so who is the commander of that 'well regulated militia' unit ? ....or was the baseball shooter still a member of a St Louis 'well regulated militia' unit who crashed the Alexandria, Va 'well regulated militia' unit's geographical jurisdiction without authorization...in other words a renegade 'well regulated militiaman'. BTW : Gun death rates among 'developed', non 3rd world nations. The USA gap is growing. www.thetrace.org/2016/01/us-gun-deaths-versus-other-countries-2016/
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 19, 2017 18:12:33 GMT
cpa, you're in that same area as the ball field shooter. Just curious.....are you in the same 'well regulated militia' unit as that guy and did you know him ?..If so who is the commander of that 'well regulated militia' unit ? ....or was the baseball shooter still a member of a St Louis 'well regulated militia' unit who crashed the Alexandria, Va 'well regulated militia' unit's geographical jurisdiction without authorization...in other words a renegade 'well regulated militiaman'. Yeah, about 15 miles from my house.
Yep, we are all part of the militia referenced in the 2nd Amendment. I am, you are, Bevo, Hero, Doc, Evil and Herd...We all are part of that militia, one of 2 militias mentioned in the Constitution.
George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people."
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped;” Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 29
|
|
|
Post by bluehen on Jun 19, 2017 19:13:37 GMT
cpa, you're in that same area as the ball field shooter. Just curious.....are you in the same 'well regulated militia' unit as that guy and did you know him ?..If so who is the commander of that 'well regulated militia' unit ? ....or was the baseball shooter still a member of a St Louis 'well regulated militia' unit who crashed the Alexandria, Va 'well regulated militia' unit's geographical jurisdiction without authorization...in other words a renegade 'well regulated militiaman'. Yeah, about 15 miles from my house.
Yep, we are all part of the militia referenced in the 2nd Amendment. I am, you are, Bevo, Hero, Doc, Evil and Herd...We all are part of that militia, one of 2 militias mentioned in the Constitution.
George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people."
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped;” Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 29
Ok, I thought there might be chance you knew this guy and maybe trained or did drills with him or attended the meetings of your local well regulated militia unit. What is the commanding officer's name and contact info ?....because I want to complain that this individual was not very 'well regulated'. Just to be sure I looked up 'regulated' in my Webster.......managed, administered, controlled, adjusted to some standard or order, etc etc. and no doubt this individual was not very well regulated and shouldn't have been issued a semi-automatic weapon by your local well regulated militia unit, IMO. I've looked up militia also and these heavily armed shoot em up lunatics don't really fit that definition either.
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 19, 2017 20:05:02 GMT
Yeah, about 15 miles from my house.
Yep, we are all part of the militia referenced in the 2nd Amendment. I am, you are, Bevo, Hero, Doc, Evil and Herd...We all are part of that militia, one of 2 militias mentioned in the Constitution.
George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people."
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped;” Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 29
Ok, I thought there might be chance you knew this guy and maybe trained or did drills with him or attended the meetings of your local well regulated militia unit. What is the commanding officer's name and contact info ?....because I want to complain that this individual was not very 'well regulated'. Just to be sure I looked up 'regulated' in my Webster.......managed, administered, controlled, adjusted to some standard or order, etc etc. and no doubt this individual was not very well regulated and shouldn't have been issued a semi-automatic weapon by your local well regulated militia unit, IMO. I've looked up militia also and these heavily armed shoot em up lunatics don't really fit that definition either.
Again, "well-regulated" has nothing to do with laws and regulations or control. It's an older term that very simply means properly functioning.
The militia of the people has no standing commanding officer, but you knew that already.
We can break 2A down word by word if you like...
|
|
|
Post by bluehen on Jun 19, 2017 23:17:36 GMT
It means managed, administered, controlled, adjusted to some standard or order. Our planet leading deranged gun violence obsession ( among modern nations ) meets none of those. You just reference the NRA stuff and that organization is the lobby for the gun industry. Selling guns is what that bunch is all about.
cpa, buddy, we have no chance of convincing each other to change our minds about the merits or demerits of our gun and gun violence obsession.
|
|
|
Post by FLORIDA HERD FAN on Jun 19, 2017 23:51:08 GMT
It is settled law.
|
|
|
Post by tigercpa on Jun 20, 2017 11:45:00 GMT
It means managed, administered, controlled, adjusted to some standard or order. Our planet leading deranged gun violence obsession ( among modern nations ) meets none of those. You just reference the NRA stuff and that organization is the lobby for the gun industry. Selling guns is what that bunch is all about. cpa, buddy, we have no chance of convincing each other to change our minds about the merits or demerits of our gun and gun violence obsession. The following are taken from the time of the writing of the 2nd amendment (Old Oxford Dictionary):
"If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."
"The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
"The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
"A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor." "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
While people today think it means controlled with lots of laws and regulations (that's certainly accepted today), it did not carry the same meaning at the time of writing. The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789 (way before the NRA) , and remained so for 100 years after. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order.
A citizen militia was much preferred to a standing army, because a leader can command the standing army to turn on its own people. This is precisely why the founders wanted the people to have the right to keep and bear arms - to fight off a standing army improperly used by a government.
This also defeats the false premise that the 2nd amendment "only applies to muskets or black powder rifles".
|
|
|
Post by FLORIDA HERD FAN on Jun 20, 2017 11:57:43 GMT
The greater concern is for the First Amendment. Trump has declared the NYT, CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN to be enemies of the American people. It is Trump's duty to protect the American people from all enemies, foreign and domestic. What better way to do so than to censor the news media. The First Amendment be damned. www.businessinsider.com/trump-media-enemy-of-american-people-2017-2
|
|