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Post by Bevo on Mar 26, 2023 18:27:56 GMT
-How much harder does Elon work than me? Hmnn... remind me again; How many multi-billion dollar companies are you running? How many podcasts are you doing weekly? How many nights have you slept on the factory floor? Last week, Musk sent a memo to all Twitter employees at 2:30 am on a Wednesday night. The message: "Office is NOT optional". There's no shame in saying we don't work as hard as Elon. There's only ignorance if you believe he ISN'T working hard. Do you think this a healthy balance? That number sounds high, based on other data I've seen. But, we're in weird economic times. So, it might be right. I don't know how healthy, or sustainable that would be. To me, it would depend largely on what these people are doing with their new wealth. If they are giving it to political parties and vote counters to affect election results, I wouldn't like it too much. If they were using it to create new jobs and educate a new generation of people to work for them? I'd be OK with it. Do you agree that people working full time at any job should need any type of government subsidy? Workers should be paid based on the value their job creates and the cost of replacing them with other workers. I have great affection for the "working poor"... much more so than I have for the perennial welfare class. If the jobs they are doing don't offer enough pay to survive, I support government assistance programs. There is dignity in work, for those who are able. I fear we are losing our ability to help such people, financially. This is why we need to get our affairs in order. I will argue that those who have the most influence are not the serfs, but the kings. This is not a democrat vs. republican problem, this is a wealth hoarder vs. common man problem. A king vs. serf problem Well... I agree with some of that. For sure, the kings generally have more influence than the serfs. But, you're forgetting another class... the one in the middle: The Government Autocrat class. They suck money from the kings AND the serfs, and pit them one against the other. I also agree it's not a democrat vs republican problem. They both play the same game, just with slightly different tools. I think our problems today are not so different from what they have ALWAYS been. A battle between "Good and Evil". Between people who are trying to do the "right thing" and those who "just don't give a fuck". Between people who are constantly working to help others and scratch out a decent living and those who see the others as "suckers", prey for the taking. The "good/bad" divide crosses all socio-economic boundaries... Rich, poor, and everything in between. It crosses all political divides. Rep/Dem/others. I think the VAST majority of people fall in the 'Good' category.... trying their best. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to destroy, to tear down, than it is to build.
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Post by aufan on Mar 27, 2023 15:04:31 GMT
I asked how much harder does Elon work than me? The multiple factor as you said? 10,000x harder than me? Even then it’s not a meritocracy.
That wealth creation is absurd, and unsustainable. Unfair wealth distribution is the biggest threat to society.
More and more homes get bought up by investment firms trying to accumulate wealth. That is why they are unaffordable. A study estimated 70% of people receiving SNAP and Medicaid were full time workers.
When food, water, shelter, medicine are all just means for a tiny percent of people to accumulate more wealth than everyone else, and they are hoarding it at an unprecedented rate, society as a whole greatly suffers.
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Post by aufan on Mar 30, 2023 13:23:30 GMT
I’m following up, how much harder does Elon work than me, you, or the rest of us? You said there is a ‘multiple factor’ of how much harder they work.
What is that factor?
Just for context, for a billionaire to have ‘earned’ $1,000,000,000, he would have had to work 10,000x harder than a person earning $100,000.
Does Elon Musk work 10,000x harder than me, making $100,000?
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Post by Bevo on Mar 31, 2023 7:58:59 GMT
He works probably twice as hard. He just produces 10,000X as much value. THAT is why he’s a billionaire and you and I are not.
There is no guarantee of equality in outcome.
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Post by Bevo on Mar 31, 2023 12:32:59 GMT
But here’s my question for you;
Who benefits more from Elon’s hard work? Him? A guy who already has more money than one person could ever spend in a lifetime. Or, the people who benefit from the fruits of Elon’s work?
Billionaires are NOT our enemy. Do-nothing, blood-sucking government leeches are.
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Post by aufan on Mar 31, 2023 19:45:38 GMT
But here’s my question for you; Who benefits more from Elon’s hard work? Him? A guy who already has more money than one person could ever spend in a lifetime. Or, the people who benefit from the fruits of Elon’s work? Billionaires are NOT our enemy. Do-nothing, blood-sucking government leeches are.
I agree that Elon Musk creates value for others. Tons of value. The people who he created the most value for are people who owned shares of his companies. People who have capital.
If the increase in wealth is proportionally weighted toward those with capital, eventually only people with capital will have the wealth. This squeezes out everyone who earns wealth through labor, and thus the only way to gain wealth is through capital. And naturally it will accumulate to those who have capital. And what happens to those who do not have capital, but add value through labor? They become squeezed out, irrelevant, and your least favorite type of person - poor.
The people you insult... blood suckers... people on Medicaid and SNAP, are mostly employed workers. And many of them work for billionaires. Walmart, Amazon, McDonalds, etc. The fundamental problem is the feedback loop that capital begets capital. Capital will only accumulate. There has to be some mechanism to distribute it to those who do not have capital, to those who are laborers.
I agree with you that the mechanism should not be government welfare. Taxing billionaires to provide more welfare is not going to solve any problems, or make anything better.
My high level thoughts: A company should have more incentive to increase wages rather than buyback their own stock.
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Post by EvilVodka on Apr 1, 2023 1:23:20 GMT
Billionaires are NOT our enemy. Do-nothing, blood-sucking government leeches are. This is such an outdated thought...maybe this made sense during the Reagan years, I don't really know The purchasing power of younger generations is continually decreasing. I worry how Gen Z will afford housing.
The system has become slanted against the white picket fence and 2.5 children. It's becoming less feasible every decade
I don't think ALL billionaires are necessarily "the enemy", but the growing discrepancy in wealth and assets will inevitably cause massive problems
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Post by EvilVodka on Apr 1, 2023 1:29:32 GMT
Very simplistic view, but not unexpected. The billionaires hoard wealth, while those who work for them are forced into government subsidized living due to low wages. Your solution… take away rights from those forced into subsidized living. Because they are abusing the system. Please reflect on that stupidity. You are blaming the serf for simply existing, while worshiping the king for abusing the system and the serfs. The irony is that those who worship the king for taking advantage of the serf, and blame the serf because they are poor, are also those who pretend to be Christian. That to me is mind boggling. As long as you believe that liberal dogma, you're going to limit your own success. No Billionaire is keeping you down. Get real dude. Most billionaires work, very hard, for their money. CEO's too. I've met a few. I guarantee you, Elon works harder than you and I, both put together. Probably by a multiple factor. I don't think too many of his employees are being forced into government subsidized housing. Hell, Musk is now contemplating giving FREE housing to factory workers, complete with solar power installed. The biggest limitation to his growth plan is, lack of affordable housing for his workers. Most billionaires are generously philanthropic, using their acquired wealth to fund projects that they think will help humanity. Granted, it's THEIR decision..... not the government's decision. Politicians, as group, despise that kind of action. Now, about the 'serfs'. As I said before, I don't blame them. I blame the politicians who have built these systems that have created long-term dependency. When you GIVE people everything they need, you end up with generational dependency. That's where we are today with far too many. Others are being held back by the lack of good schooling, compounded by cultural factors, such as single-parent homes, and drug dependency. I truly believe the 'serfs' have a better chance of having their lives improved by the innovation brought forth from billionaires than from the blood-sucking leaches that populate our government. Bottom line though is: As a country, we are spending ourselves into oblivion. If we don't find SOME way to get it under control, living conditions here will get a LOT worse for 'serfs'. I was worried 20 years ago that we were too far gone to save ourselves. I can barely fathom a good outcome now. Somehow, some way, we've GOT to limit spending increases... and, find ways to generate more revenue.... in ways that are not destructive to wealth creation. We need to, at least, balance our budget. At this point, if we took EVERY nickel that every Billionaire has, it wouldn't make a dent in our long-term liabilities. For all their great individual wealth, the REAL money remains distributed among the masses. Well, half of the masses, anyway. The federal government is the major problem
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Post by aufan on Apr 1, 2023 22:06:23 GMT
Billionaires are NOT our enemy. Do-nothing, blood-sucking government leeches are. This is such an outdated thought...maybe this made sense during the Reagan years, I don't really know The purchasing power of younger generations is continually decreasing. I worry how Gen Z will afford housing.
The system has become slanted against the white picket fence and 2.5 children. It's becoming less feasible every decade
I don't think ALL billionaires are necessarily "the enemy", but the growing discrepancy in wealth and assets will inevitably cause massive problems
Easy way to allow gen Z to afford housing: make it illegal for corporations to buy housing. When the basics: food, water, medicine, shelter, are means for people to accumulate wealth, society is going to suffer. It didn’t make sense during the Reagan years, but the welfare queen/trickle down economics brainwashed a huge group of people and we are still paying the consequences today.
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Post by Bevo on Apr 2, 2023 1:25:34 GMT
I agree that Elon Musk creates value for others. Tons of value. The people who he created the most value for are people who owned shares of his companies. People who have capital. Oh... so there’s NO value created for the thousands of people who work in his plants? For the people who work for companies who supply parts and services to Elon's plants? To the people who benefit from the taxes those THOUSANDS of people pay? To the people who get to drive the coolest car on the planet? And, anyway.... what about those "people with capital"? You seem to think they're ALL billionaires, who need to be eaten. What % of Americans do you think own stock? It's been higher in the not too distant past, but.... it's still 58%. news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspxI'd trade a 1000 Chuck Schumers for ONE more Elon Musk. If the increase in wealth is proportionally weighted toward those with capital, eventually only people with capital will have the wealth Wealth creation is NOT a zero sum game. One side getting more doesn't mean that another side gets less. THAT, is what happens when government taxes. They TAKE from some, to give to others. When you have true wealth "creation"... everyone can get more. Yes, for sure... the wealthy will always get more. Thus, it has always been so. Show many ANY country EVER on earth worth living in where this has not been the case? The wealthy invest more... and, consequently reap a greater reward when their investment works out. Of course, they also LOSE more when things go wrong. The difference is, most are insulated from the fluxuations. The people you insult... blood suckers... people on Medicaid and SNAP, are mostly employed workers. I didn't insult these people. You misunderstood what I said. The "Blood sucking leeches" are people in our government. They spend money they don't have, because they will not risk the political consequence of doing the right thing. When they print money like this, they debase the value of every dollar we have. And then, we all marvel at why it takes MORE MONEY to buy things with intrinsic value? They create nothing. There has to be some mechanism to distribute it to those who do not have capital, to those who are laborers. The ONLY way I have ever seen wages rise in a sustainable way is: When businesses have to BID in the open market, to get workers. Arbitrary Min Wage increases don't do it. That just reduces the number of jobs available. When there aren't enough workers, or too many workers are leaving for better jobs, wages go up. Supply & demand in an immutable law. Want more value to go to workers? Either INCREASE the numbers of jobs or reduce the number of workers. A company should have more incentive to increase wages rather than buyback their own stock. LOL liberals really hate stock buybacks. Increasing wages permanently increases a company's labor cost. Well, they CAN reduce it, but not without great pain. Buying back shares REDUCES the cost of dividend payments.... allowing more money for future investments in the company, or labor costs. It also gives the company room to raise capital in the future, if needed.
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Post by Bevo on Apr 2, 2023 1:34:59 GMT
maybe this made sense during the Reagan years, I don't really know The purchasing power of younger generations is continually decreasing. I worry how Gen Z will afford housing. LOL There weren't as many billionaires during the Reagan year. ROFL on the poor Gen Z not being able to afford housing. My first home mortgage (in 1983) was 21.5%. Do you know what kind of house you can buy with that rate and a salary of $28,000? I'll give you a hint: a SMALL one. My bosses lived in beautiful houses 3X the size of mine, but had house notes about the same.... with 3% loans. Did I sit around and bitch about it? NO! I worked, got married, and bought what I could. Ok... I did bitch a little. But, I didn't let it keep me from living my life. Take a look at the "housing affordability index" since 1983. www.frbsf.org/education/publications/doctor-econ/2003/december/housing-affordability-index/You guys throw around the "Reagan" name as some kind of pejorative. He did more to keep life within reach of the poor than anyone in my lifetime. He INDEXED taxes to inflation... you guys are STILL getting a tax cut from him every year, when the Standard Deduction goes up, and you don't even know. He started 401k's... allowing us all to save for retirement (OUTSIDE of Social Security) with tax-free money. He signed the last major reform of Social Security... one that raised the retirement age (Slowly, over time) and increased SS taxes over time. He made the system solvent for decades...it would have been broke long ago without this. He also took the political heat required to break inflation. NO ONE living today is wanting to take that on.
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Post by Bevo on Apr 2, 2023 2:09:21 GMT
the welfare queen/trickle down economics brainwashed a huge group of people and we are still paying the consequences today. We were brainwashed by dramatic improvement in the economy and the decades of economic growth that followed. I sure wish someone would brainwash me like that some more!
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Post by aufan on Apr 2, 2023 4:58:09 GMT
I agree that Elon Musk creates value for others. Tons of value. The people who he created the most value for are people who owned shares of his companies. People who have capital. Oh... so there’s NO value created for the thousands of people who work in his plants? For the people who work for companies who supply parts and services to Elon's plants? To the people who benefit from the taxes those THOUSANDS of people pay? To the people who get to drive the coolest car on the planet? And, anyway.... what about those "people with capital"? You seem to think they're ALL billionaires, who need to be eaten. What % of Americans do you think own stock? It's been higher in the not too distant past, but.... it's still 58%. news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspxI'd trade a 1000 Chuck Schumers for ONE more Elon Musk. I did not say he only created value for people with capital. I did not say only billionaires have capital. Your link at best means nothing, a minimum wage employee with a 1% match at a 401k "owns stock". My point is proportionality. If you want to use stocks as evidence, fine: money.com/stock-ownership-10-percent-richest/www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-americans-own-a-record-89percent-of-all-us-stocks.htmlThe top 10% are owning proportional more stock over time. In 2001 - 77% In 2016 - 84% In 2021 - 89% Capital begets capital. And it will continue to accumulate at the top. If the increase in wealth is proportionally weighted toward those with capital, eventually only people with capital will have the wealth Wealth creation is NOT a zero sum game. One side getting more doesn't mean that another side gets less. THAT, is what happens when government taxes. They TAKE from some, to give to others. When you have true wealth "creation"... everyone can get more. Yes, for sure... the wealthy will always get more. Thus, it has always been so. Show many ANY country EVER on earth worth living in where this has not been the case? The wealthy invest more... and, consequently reap a greater reward when their investment works out. Of course, they also LOSE more when things go wrong. The difference is, most are insulated from the fluxuations. I'm not arguing for everyone to get the same, or that there shouldn't be wealthy people. I'm arguing that the proportions are absolutely ridiculous. For every $1 a filthy poor person (bottom 90%) gained in wealth during the pandemic, a billionaire gained $1,700,000. The top 1% amassed almost 2/3's of the wealth increase during the pandemic. www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-almost-two-thirds-of-new-wealth-created-since-2020-oxfam.htmlProportionally, this is unsustainable. The people you insult... blood suckers... people on Medicaid and SNAP, are mostly employed workers. I didn't insult these people. You misunderstood what I said. The "Blood sucking leeches" are people in our government. They spend money they don't have, because they will not risk the political consequence of doing the right thing. When they print money like this, they debase the value of every dollar we have. And then, we all marvel at why it takes MORE MONEY to buy things with intrinsic value? They create nothing. There has to be some mechanism to distribute it to those who do not have capital, to those who are laborers. The ONLY way I have ever seen wages rise in a sustainable way is: When businesses have to BID in the open market, to get workers. Arbitrary Min Wage increases don't do it. That just reduces the number of jobs available. When there aren't enough workers, or too many workers are leaving for better jobs, wages go up. Supply & demand in an immutable law. Want more value to go to workers? Either INCREASE the numbers of jobs or reduce the number of workers. A company should have more incentive to increase wages rather than buyback their own stock. LOL liberals really hate stock buybacks. Increasing wages permanently increases a company's labor cost. Well, they CAN reduce it, but not without great pain. Buying back shares REDUCES the cost of dividend payments.... allowing more money for future investments in the company, or labor costs. It also gives the company room to raise capital in the future, if needed. What if the laws of supply and demand won't give everyone willing to work a livable wage? There are either too many workers, not enough jobs, or certain jobs don't create enough value? Fuck em? Regardless of you ignoring overall points and individual points, I'll say it again: it is about proportionality. Some people won't earn $1,000,000 in their lifetime. For a billionaire to be worth over $100,000,000,000, they have 100,000 LIFE TIMES of wealth compared to others. This is why I say billionaires should not exist. The argument is one of proportionality. Anyone who has tried to comprehend how big 1,000,000,000,000 is will understand, because it is incomprehensible. And the proportions are getting more and more ridiculous. If this trend continues, society will greatly suffer.
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Post by Bevo on Apr 2, 2023 7:56:36 GMT
What if the laws of supply and demand won't give everyone willing to work a livable wage? There are either too many workers, not enough jobs, or certain jobs don't create enough value? Fuck em? Eff em... yea. That's what we do. Good grief. We have multitudes of support programs for those who can't make enough to get by. Not every job ever has, or ever will provide enough money for your vision of a "livable wage"... whatever that is. When I was 16, I worked full-time at 7-11 for $2.38 an hour. That wasn't "livable", even in 1975, but I was happy to have the money. I didn't continue working there my entire life and expect them to pay me enough to buy a house and raise a family. Although, I must say....I was probably the best worker 7-11 ever had. My Area Supervisor offered me a manager's job and promised me more money per year than I would earn for the next 10 years... after 4 years of college and 6 years as an engineer. But, that's not the point. Some full-time jobs just don't create enough value for someone to live on. But, they can still work for some people. I guess I will just never get your vision of penultimate class warfare. Some lady on CNBC writes an article saying the Top 1% earned 2/3rds of the wealth in the last 2 years, and you've got your panties in a wad. And that’s affecting me how?? Which of these billionaires is holding you back? Can you not find a way to make money? If you took 100% of the Net Worth of the Top 10 Billionaires in the US... Not just their liquid assets, ALL of their acquired wealth. You'd have enough money to fund US government spending for about 6 weeks. What then? What is the "correct" ratio of wealth distribution? Who gets to set it? And what if many of the people you want the wealth to go to are doing nothing to earn it? Would you prefer a system like China? Where they own EVERY house and we just get to lease it from them. I'm not worried about the people out there busting their butts, creating jobs, new products, great things that so many people want to buy, they make gobs of money. I'm worried about our out-of-control government who TAKES money from every producer and gives it away to buy votes to maintain their power. Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are providing goods and services I LOVE, helping untold millions to survive. Meanwhile, our government is blowing money right and left on totally useless BS. I can't see how taking MORE from the wealth creators to give to the wealth destroyers is going to make ANY of us better off? I bet we could find some reforms that we agree on to improve things... but, it won't be crazy new taxes on the rich.
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Post by tigercpa on Apr 2, 2023 16:27:59 GMT
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