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Post by bluehen on May 26, 2018 0:12:21 GMT
NRA members haven't shot up anything. Its not about members. NRA ideology and political lobby power has indirectly provided the weaponry for the mass shootings which have been 57X greater in the US than all the other industrialized nations on Earth. It's all about selling guns/ammo for the firearms industry....just like the tobacco lobby wants to sell cigarettes. Cpa, I actually used to respect the old NRA of 50 years ago often depicted in imagery of a father/grandfather sitting by the cabin fireplace in a red plaid shirt, with a beautiful pointing dog laying nearby and showing a young boy how to clean a fine double barrel bird gun. Now when you check the NRA's 'gun of the week' it's often modeled by a guy in black tactical clothing with a 'weapon' designed specifically for killing humans and nothing else...large magazine , semi-automatic, rifles and hand guns....sold in the name of home defense....and boy does that stuff sell ! The NRA has evolved from useful to evil, imo.
Still waiting to sell you some of my guns.
Except that it is not.
The NRA as boogeyman is a tired, and untruthful meme.
The NRA has roughly 4 million members (out of over 300 million people, and nearly 90 million gun owners)) and is not even in the top 100 lobbying organizations who give money to politicians.
You greatly embellish their prowess beyond reality.
When you boil it down were are talking roughly 1,700 homicides by a firearm per year. In a country of over 300,000,000 people. That's infinitesimal.
The US ranks 189th in the world in murder per capita when you remove a few select zip codes around the country.
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist on a relative basis.
As Bevo said, it's a multi-faceted problem, and continually bringing up the NRA does nothing for probable solutions.
The NRA already advocates for safe, responsible gun ownership.
NRA prevents common sense gun/ammo regulation. You don't deny that it lobbies on behalf of the firearms industry, indirectly selling these weapons . It used to mainly promote and sell sporting arms , which was fine, imo.
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Post by tigercpa on May 27, 2018 1:31:14 GMT
Except that it is not.
The NRA as boogeyman is a tired, and untruthful meme.
The NRA has roughly 4 million members (out of over 300 million people, and nearly 90 million gun owners)) and is not even in the top 100 lobbying organizations who give money to politicians.
You greatly embellish their prowess beyond reality.
When you boil it down were are talking roughly 1,700 homicides by a firearm per year. In a country of over 300,000,000 people. That's infinitesimal.
The US ranks 189th in the world in murder per capita when you remove a few select zip codes around the country.
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist on a relative basis.
As Bevo said, it's a multi-faceted problem, and continually bringing up the NRA does nothing for probable solutions.
The NRA already advocates for safe, responsible gun ownership.
NRA prevents common sense gun/ammo regulation. You don't deny that it lobbies on behalf of the firearms industry, indirectly selling these weapons . It used to mainly promote and sell sporting arms , which was fine, imo. What common sense gun regulation has the NRA prevented?
THere are 20,000 "common sense" gun laws on the books now. Politicians continually tell us we need more "common sense" gun laws.
20,000 not enough? Maybe 20,001 will solve everything.
Regulating ammo is not common sense.
NRA does NOT arm anyone. They do however provide training, firearms SAFETY courses, and support education programs. They also support reasonable gun safety laws.
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Post by bluehen on May 27, 2018 10:51:27 GMT
Except that it is not.
The NRA as boogeyman is a tired, and untruthful meme.
The NRA has roughly 4 million members (out of over 300 million people, and nearly 90 million gun owners)) and is not even in the top 100 lobbying organizations who give money to politicians.
You greatly embellish their prowess beyond reality.
When you boil it down were are talking roughly 1,700 homicides by a firearm per year. In a country of over 300,000,000 people. That's infinitesimal.
The US ranks 189th in the world in murder per capita when you remove a few select zip codes around the country.
You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist on a relative basis.
As Bevo said, it's a multi-faceted problem, and continually bringing up the NRA does nothing for probable solutions.
The NRA already advocates for safe, responsible gun ownership.
NRA prevents common sense gun/ammo regulation. You don't deny that it lobbies on behalf of the firearms industry, indirectly selling these weapons . It used to mainly promote and sell sporting arms , which was fine, imo. Gun laws don't work because they are State gun laws and all different. Firearm/ammo regulation must be federalized. I'm against big government EXCEPT that ATF needs to be grown and empowered. I have to buy a license to go fishing in the creek down the road but I don't need a license to buy 10 AR-15s and 5,000 rounds of ammo. ...ridiculous !!!!!!!!
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Post by tigercpa on May 27, 2018 11:33:09 GMT
NRA prevents common sense gun/ammo regulation. You don't deny that it lobbies on behalf of the firearms industry, indirectly selling these weapons . It used to mainly promote and sell sporting arms , which was fine, imo. Gun laws don't work because they are State gun laws and all different. Firearm/ammo regulation must be federalized. I'm against big government EXCEPT that ATF needs to be grown and empowered. I have to buy a license to go fishing in the creek down the road but I don't need a license to buy 10 AR-15s and 5,000 rounds of ammo. ...ridiculous !!!!!!!! Alright, now we are getting somewhere....maybe...until you said the ATF needs to be grown and empowered. The ATF needs to be disbanded. It's been scandal-plagued and is essentially a duplicative function. The ATU (originally known as the Alcohol Tax Unit) did a good job of chasing race car drivers who bored out their engines to run moonshine up and down the hills of Appalachia.
You also were not subjected to an intensive background check for that fishing license.
Moynihan - remember his proposal? He wanted a 10,000% tax on ammo purchases. That would mean a box of 9mm ammo would cost in the area of $1,500.
Many gun control activists want ammo to be heavily taxed, highly regulated (some want to limit each person to 10 rounds max ownership) and also to require liability insurance of $10 million per each gun owned. Some even want your name / identifying number inscribed on each round. Taxes each year, just like other property taxes.
Since they can't repeal 2A, they want to make it financially impossible for law-abiding people to own a gun. Make it so onerous, that a slight misstep is a felony, and then they simply take your guns...because you are a "criminal".
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Post by tigercpa on May 27, 2018 13:54:57 GMT
A kid with a shotgun gets into a school easily, a kid with a Bible would have been stopped at the door.
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Post by tigercpa on May 28, 2018 11:06:58 GMT
Back to finding root causes and solutions...
Maybe it's not the guns...maybe our culture and attitude is what has changed. Guns have always been there. Before 1960 there were hardly any school mass shootings.
Jim Hanson notes:
Also:
There is also another factor common to most if not all mass shooters: various psychiatric medications.
From Columbine to Parkland to Santa Fe, they were all either using or withdrawing from medications such as Luvox, Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Ritalin or others.
We've had guns since the Revolution, kids used to bring their guns to school and go hunting afterwards. If guns caused mass shootings, why didn't we have them before?
More Americans die from drowning in their bathtubs than die from mass shootings.
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Post by bluehen on May 28, 2018 13:18:27 GMT
"they're gonna take your guns, they're gonna take your guns !!!!!! " ...the biggest lie/propaganda ploy used by the NRA to maintain its massively heavy political weight in maintaining the gun culture in the US. It manipulates the fears and ignorance of the gullible, less educated and less cerebral. ( in general of course...there are lots of cerebral gun nuts..like you, cpa)
Also 'law abiding citizens'.....most of the mass shooters were 'law abiding citizens' before they decided to not be.
Here you go cpa. If you were the USA's all powerful dictator what would you do to address the gun violence culture issue in this nation if anything. I'll give you my dictatorial plan after you tell me yours.
We're obviously not going to change either view of the gun issue so we might as well have a bit of fun with it, right ?
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Post by tigercpa on May 28, 2018 14:18:04 GMT
"they're gonna take your guns, they're gonna take your guns !!!!!! " ...the biggest lie/propaganda ploy used by the NRA to maintain its massively heavy political weight in maintaining the gun culture in the US. It manipulates the fears and ignorance of the gullible, less educated and less cerebral. ( in general of course...there are lots of cerebral gun nuts..like you, cpa) Also 'law abiding citizens'.....most of the mass shooters were 'law abiding citizens' before they decided to not be. Here you go cpa. If you were the USA's all powerful dictator what would you do to address the gun violence culture issue in this nation if anything. I'll give you my dictatorial plan after you tell me yours. We're obviously not going to change either view of the gun issue so we might as well have a bit of fun with it, right ? Except it's not the biggest lie. Over the last decade, there been many proposals by various congressmen to do just that - ban / take away all guns.
Repeal the 2nd Amendment. Some have proposed that as well.
There is no gun violence culture...I would just say there is a violence culture. We lost our manners, to put it simply.
People get out of cars and beat on others for the slightest perceived "disrespect". In restaurants, at malls...look at the Thanksgiving day sales at Wal-Mart. People fighting over a fucking waffle iron that's on sale, or some damn headphones, or other crap.
I'm not willing to trade liberty for safety.
Start by enforcing the laws. 44,000 felons tried to buy guns last year...how many were prosecuted? Less than 20. Joe Biden said "we don't have time". Seems to me those ARE the ones you'd want to prosecute, right? A felon that will illegaly try to buy a gun will very likely get one and commit more crimes.
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Post by bluehen on May 28, 2018 20:28:48 GMT
Enforcing what laws ? There are 50 different sets of state laws totaling hundreds and hundreds of firearm regulations . 50 different sets of laws pertaining to 400 million guns and gazillion rounds of ammo is not compatible. That's another NRA whopper lie/sales pitch......you need large capacity, semi automatic rifles and hand guns for your family safety. " Here, check out our 'gun of the week'. They're on special at Bass Pro Shops this week ..and 200 rounds free with any Bushwacker purchase ".
Let me know when you're ready for the Blue Hen national firearms policy.
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Post by tigercpa on May 29, 2018 11:45:51 GMT
Enforcing what laws ? There are 50 different sets of state laws totaling hundreds and hundreds of firearm regulations . 50 different sets of laws pertaining to 400 million guns and gazillion rounds of ammo is not compatible. That's another NRA whopper lie/sales pitch......you need large capacity, semi automatic rifles and hand guns for your family safety. " Here, check out our 'gun of the week'. They're on special at Bass Pro Shops this week ..and 200 rounds free with any Bushwacker purchase ". Let me know when you're ready for the Blue Hen national firearms policy. Enforcing the federal gun laws you spoke about. The background check - NICS - is a federal process. Biden said we don't have time to prosecute people who commit felonies by lying on Form 4473. The AR-15 is an excellent home defense weapon. It's basically a .22 with some plastic, cosmetic add-ons to make it look "tactical". I'm ready for the bluehen firearms policy, even if I won't like it.
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Post by bluehen on May 31, 2018 20:21:14 GMT
Ok, cpa. 1) the NRA is most definitely the "boogeyman" in our nation's gun violence problems ( which doesn't exist..I know). Its warped, self serving interpretation of the 2A fools the great masses of less educated, less cerebral and gullible ( Trump 'base' types ) and puts false fear into their hearts with all the "they're gonna take your guns, they'll take your guns for sure !!!!!.beware !" bullshit. And playing that propaganda based fear the NRA is successful at steering that category of voter into supporting 'gun' candidates and defeating politicians with a conscience that would have the fortitude to do something about the problem ( that doesn't exist ) 2) Compare the ballistic numbers of .22 and .223 caliber rounds- no comparison in deadly capability. Heck, just look at the powder/bullet relationship of each. The BH plan """""""""" Total focus on ammo regulation !!!. It's not feasible to retrieve all the deadly weaponry from all the dangerous lunatics running around with that stuff. I would totally federalize ammo management. No more states deciding anything gun/ammo related. Greatly empower the ATF bureau and establish regional ATF armories that would be the only place available for citizens to purchase firearms ammunition....no more on line purchases, mail order ammo, or retail buying at the corner store, Wal-Mart, Bass Pro...no place but ATF facilities ! Furthermore, to purchase ammo from the ATF one must be issued a license. To obtain an ammo license a citizen ((legal US citizen) MUST be 21 , must have a minimum tested IQ of 100, must have, at least, a HS diploma, must pay taxes ( unless legitimately disabled), must have a total felony free crime record and no more than two misdemeanor convictions, and must not have any previous mental health issues.... all similar to what I think voter eligibility should be. Ammo license applicants will be THOROUGHLY vetted by the ATF bureau....no cracks ! Manufacturing, smuggling selling or obtaining ammo in any other manner will be a federal felony offense and punishable by prison sentences. Also, ammo quantities will be limited to an annual quota for licensed ammo buyers. The only actual federal 'gun' regulation would be a total ban on the marketing of large magazine capacity , semi auto, rifles and handguns. Haven't decided on the max # of rounds yet. There you go, cpa. The BH plan would not prevent intelligent, responsible, mentally stable, law abiding citizens from hunting, collecting, target shooting or home defending but in time it would make a big difference in the US's planet leading firearm violence problem ( which doesn't exist ). So, are you ready to quit the NRA now
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Post by bluehen on May 31, 2018 20:26:37 GMT
Ok, cpa. 1) the NRA is most definitely the "boogeyman" in our nation's gun violence problems ( which doesn't exist..I know). Its warped, self serving interpretation of the 2A fools the great masses of less educated, less cerebral and gullible ( Trump 'base' types ) and puts false fear into their hearts with all the "they're gonna take your guns, they'll take your guns for sure !!!!!.beware !" bullshit. And playing that propaganda based fear the NRA is successful at steering that category of voter into supporting 'gun' candidates and defeating politicians with a conscience that would have the fortitude to do something about the problem ( that doesn't exist ) 2) Compare the ballistic numbers of .22 and .223 caliber rounds- no comparison in deadly capability. Heck, just look at the powder/bullet relationship of each. The BH plan """""""""" Total focus on ammo regulation !!!. It's not feasible to retrieve all the deadly weaponry from all the dangerous lunatics running around with that stuff. I would totally federalize ammo management. No more states deciding anything gun/ammo related. Greatly empower the ATF bureau and establish regional ATF armories that would be the only place available for citizens to purchase firearms ammunition....no more on line purchases, mail order ammo, or retail buying at the corner store, Wal-Mart, Bass Pro...no place but ATF facilities ! Furthermore, to purchase ammo from the ATF one must be issued a license. To obtain an ammo license a citizen ((legal US citizen) MUST be 21 , must have a minimum tested IQ of 100, must have, at least, a HS diploma, must pay taxes ( unless legitimately disabled), must have a total felony free crime record and no more than two misdemeanor convictions, and must not have any previous mental health issues.... all similar to what I think voter eligibility should be. Ammo license applicants will be THOROUGHLY vetted by the ATF bureau....no cracks ! Manufacturing, smuggling selling or obtaining ammo in any other manner will be a federal felony offense and punishable by prison sentences. Also, ammo quantities will be limited to an annual quota for licensed ammo buyers. The only actual federal 'gun' regulation would be a total ban on the marketing of large magazine capacity , semi auto, rifles and handguns. Haven't decided on the max # of rounds yet. There you go, cpa. The BH plan would not prevent intelligent, responsible, mentally stable, law abiding citizens from hunting, collecting, target shooting or home defending but in time it would make a big difference in the US's planet leading firearm related violence. Quit the NRA, cpa and get on board with common sense !!
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Post by Bevo on Jun 1, 2018 13:05:07 GMT
the 2A fools the great masses of less educated, less cerebral and gullible ( Trump 'base' types ) You pretty much lost all credibility with me after that over-generalized insult. Typically NOT a "cerebral" manner of beginning a piece you hope to be persuasive....
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Post by bluehen on Jun 1, 2018 13:41:30 GMT
the 2A fools the great masses of less educated, less cerebral and gullible ( Trump 'base' types ) You pretty much lost all credibility with me after that over-generalized insult. Typically NOT a "cerebral" manner of beginning a piece you hope to be persuasive.... Hey Bevo,
I've lost all credibility with you about 45 times over the past few years. What else is new ? You didn't cite the total quote - "The NRA's self serving interpretation......' be fair.
I loathe Trump but I fully respect yours and all the opinions ( and credibility) of the posters around here that tend to worship him. He's very polarizing and causes heated debates among friends.
My insult probably was too 'generalized'. Trump, while campaigning, said "I could walk out on the street and shoot somebody in the head and they'll still love me" ( something like that). ....and they would. Those are the brainless twits I meant to insult.
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Post by Bevo on Jun 1, 2018 16:35:43 GMT
I've lost all credibility with you about 45 times over the past few years. What else is new ? Good point... certainly true on all matters regarding guns and the SEC. You didn't cite the total quote - "The NRA's self serving interpretation...... be fair. Your comment implied that "Trump's base" is comprised of knuckle-dragging idiots. I know that's the belief of CNN and MSNBC, etc.... but, they don't have a clue. Those people all thought Hillary was going to win in a landslide too. They STILL haven't figured it out. And, apparently... neither have you. I loathe Trump but I fully respect yours and all the opinions ( and credibility) of the posters around here that tend to worship him. Worship him? Really? What an abhorrent word to use in this context. I don't know of ANYONE on this board that 'worships' DJT. Heck, these days... if you just don't share the opinion that Trump's mouth is Putin's "Cock holder" and that Trump's lovely daughter is a "Feckless cunt", then you're a "Trump worshiper".
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